SPEAKER_04 0:16

Hi, I'm Maiva, and this is Raising with the Village, a podcast where real parents share real stories so we can all feel a little bit more connected on this wild journey of raising children. If you caught up with the last episode, you already know Holly, her honesty, and the very real picture she painted of what parenting looks like when your life runs opposite to everyone else's. Well, after that conversation, I may have jokingly mentioned to Holly that I'd love to get to meet her partner too. And here we are. Today, I'm talking to Theil. Theil is a chef, and if you know anything about hospitality, you'll know that being a chef isn't just a job, it's a way of life. Late nights, long shifts, weekends, the moments most families are together are often the moments Phil is in a kitchen fitting everyone else's. So what does fatherhood look like from that side of the path? What does it mean to be a present dad when your day starts when most people's day is ending? And could he picture having more children with this life set up? We also get into something bigger about the choices that people make around parenthood and whether we judge them differently depending on who's making them. This conversation surprised me, and I think it will stay with you. One thing I'll say, we recorded this after Phil's shift. The man had been on his feet all day and still showed up with so much openness. So I feel that that did not go unnoticed. Thank you. And now here is Phil Stark. Hi, how are you? I'm good. Um shall we start with some quick introductions? Who are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

My name is Phil. I'm a father of one. My son is three and a half years old. Um my partner is Holly.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Ah. So, for those of you listening, you may remember Holly from the previous episode. We heard her side of the story. The theme was um working in hospitality and being a mum. And we did say at the very end of the conversation that we would try and get hold of her partner. And so today I'm introducing Phil, who is Holly's partner. Glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me. Well, thank you for thank you for coming. Very happy. And I'm really excited to um know part B of the story because I've got part A.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Okay. I'll do my best to fill in the rest.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Perfect. Right. So um let's start at the very beginning. I asked that question to Holly as well, and so I went all the way back to before you actually decided to have children, become a family. So you were a happy couple. Actually, I was just wondering, would you like to give me the story of um the history of your couple? Because she gave me the history from her side. And I thought, ooh, Phil is being very clever here by um moving into your your flat whilst you're away. Um and she said, actually, no, it was my idea. So can I quickly have your version of the story on this point?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah. Um, so uh we first met working um in a restaurant together in Soho. Um and we worked together for I don't know, a period of time, maybe six to nine months. Um and yeah, went on a few dates, um, and then I kind of discovered that she had plans to kind of leave the country and go and work on some yachts, which was, you know, fine and all good. Um and we kind of embarked on a bit of a long-distance relationship, um uh, which kind of went well. And, you know, through and when she decided she was like, right, I'm leaving the country, um, you know, the opportunity came up for me to potentially take a room in her flat where she was staying. Um so yeah, bit weird, but it kind of just worked out for both of us. So um, yeah, I was living in Highbury, um, and yeah, I was coming to the end of my lease on my r my rent, so uh my rental property. So uh yeah, moved in there and then yeah, just looked after her uh her apartment for her for a bit, and then yeah, and then she came back. I kind of like professed my undying love for her whilst we were away, uh while she was away, and then she came back. Uh and then we lived there for um a while, I can't think exactly how long, but uh maybe a year or so. And then we moved to uh Highbury, back to Highbury, uh, which was uh into the flat with my sisters used to rent, which was lovely. And then we were there, you know, happily together for a couple of years, and then we kind of thought to ourselves maybe we should think about starting a family, which um I guess was the podcast is about, yeah. Yeah, I mean, uh you were asking me about the thinking the thoughts behind kind of uh what kind of instigated that thought. But I guess, you know, we'd been together stable in a you know a strong relationship for for a while, and I think I guess, you know, people just say it's the next logical step. I don't I don't know whether it was the logic logical step, because you know, we uh both relatively independent as a couple, um uh with the jobs that we both had, we weren't again working still together at that point. We only worked relatively briefly together. Yeah, and we were quite both in quite independent, you know. I've come from a relatively large family, I'm one of four children. Um so I've always wanted kids. And I guess you know, I think maybe Holly was maybe the instigator slightly, but you know, I was definitely on board and you know, we uh started trying. Through lockdown, I think. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a whole other long story. I guess everyone's got their lockdown stories.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

We got her version of the story as well. You're you're you're very good because it actually matches, so that's good. Yeah. She'll be happy to hear. So when you started thinking about um having a family, so for you it was sort of natural. I come from a large family, I've got three siblings, uh, I see myself having uh my own little family as well. Did you ever take into consideration the fact that you were working in hospitality? And was that something that you thought could maybe make the whole project slightly different to what normal parenting project looks like?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah, I guess I I had I had a bit of an idea. So when I was staying with my sister in Hyobury in in the flat that we subsequently moved into, um I was their kind of lodger whilst she had her first child. Um and they were both working working parents. Um she's a lawyer and her partner is in finance. And I did a bit of babysitting and uh for for my uh for my nephew when he was born. Um so I I had actually um a bit of a a bit of a taster there of what it was like and what it would be like to raise a child uh being a full-time professional. Um and the help that was needed, you know. My mum used to come up um once, potentially twice a week. I would laugh look after him on my days off uh where I could. Um potentially, yeah, probably it would at one point, yeah, it was kind of once a week for the first, you know, within the first year of of his of his life. Um so I kind of did know that we would need some support. And, you know, it's just really not possible. He wasn't in nurse. Yeah, so I guess he went to nursery maybe between nine and nine months in a year. So for the first nine months I was there um and helping out, and my mum was helping out, so yeah. I kind of I had a bit of an idea of what it would be like.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

And so at that point, when you were helping your um sister out, you were also working in hospitality. So you also had a taste of what life was like when you're potentially fairly exhausted um after your shift, uh, and you come home to a tiny little human with lots of needs that you need to fulfill.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, for sure. And I I could I could definitely see how tired they were. They were on nine to fives. Um but look, I think I don't know. I mean, maybe it's my personality, but it's you know I'm of the idea that, you know, you do what you need to do, kind of thing. Um and and you know, that's never seen as like a a negative thing. It's not a begrudging thing. It's uh, you know, you do it, you rise to it, and you and you you get it done, kind of thing. And that's kind of my attitude on on extra workload and extra um, you know, responsibilities and things. So Yeah. I never saw them, you know, I saw it as like a it didn't put me off, basically. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Did you have any role models that you were looking up to going into your paternity or thinking about your future paternity? Did you have anyone that you were thinking like, mm, I'd love to be like them, whether you're uh your own dad, um whether other family members, friends, colleagues, any role models?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Um not off the top of my head. I mean, most of the women in my family are probably my role models. I don't have I mean I I you know my dad's great, and if for what he's done for our family, absolutely tons of respect for him. But as a um a parent, I would say, I would say uh I look to the women in my family. So my my grandma, my three older sisters, and my mum would probably be my you know role models when it comes to kind of um you know parenting and I think um it's it's interesting because my dad obviously not obviously, but my dad was a uh psychiatric nurse and so he worked night shifts for on and off for about 20 years. So through my whole childhood, he was always on shift work. So um sleeping in the day, used to leave around 6:30, 7 o'clock at night, uh, after dinner, um, go to work. Um, and then he'd probably be back into bed just as we're waking up, kind of thing. So well, yeah, this wasn't every day shift work. Obviously, he you can't do that five days a week. He I don't know, it was all a bit random. I can't really remember exactly his shift patterns, but he did agency work and stuff like that. So um yeah, that was um I guess maybe that is that wasn't role model for me. I mean, you know, for the fact that I knew he could do it and he did it with four kids, um, I don't see that me doing it with one child was ever gonna be that daunting, really. I think.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

That that's really interesting. I had no idea that uh your dad had also worked in shit works. Can I ask about your mum?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

She was uh occupational therapist, um, and she worked a nine to five, so Okay. Yeah, regular hours you didn't do any shift work.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Okay. Okay, so I guess it was a balance between um the two of them. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Right, so now let's go back to your story. You said that you started trying uh during COVID. Fun times, we'll assume. Um you started trying during nothing bad to do, yeah. Well, I mean, there was something to do. So why not? Um so you started trying during COVID, um, and then at some point you get that confirmation that's it. Your partner is pregnant. What comes from your mind at this point?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Well, I mean, proud. Um, I think, you know, excited. Um and I kind of I don't know, there was a lot going on, obviously, because I lost my job uh at the start of lockdown. Obviously, all restaurants were closed. Um and funnily enough, timing is everything. I had actually secured a new job. I think it was in the February, yeah, February. Um and we so that'll be 2019. So we then went on holiday, um, and when we came back, the whole country was locked down. I get on my phone to my new prospective workplace, and he's like, um, we've shut the restaurant, so your job is no longer existing. Uh so that was a bit annoying. And then obviously I'd left my previous job, so I couldn't get furloughed from them, and they also went into liquidation, so there was really nothing to do there. So I was stuck between two jobs that didn't exist. And then so I basically had to go and um do agency work and kind of worked in Asda doing night shifts and and for you know, scratching around for for agency work for a for a few months, I think, or at least a couple of a good couple of months. And then luckily my brother-in-law uh has his own business. He installs car park equipment, like, you know, barriers and cameras and things, and he had work because it was all outside, his job still ran, like and there was quite a lot of work to do because people thought, well, there's a good opportunity to revamp my car park. Well, and so yeah, I worked with him for about eight to nine months over the summer. So from like April, end of April all the way to October. Yeah, it was quite a stressful period, in fact, because you know, to just pay the rent, it was quite hard. Um and so I think part of the fact why we decided to go, because when I sorted all that and the restaurants all opened up again and I got a job at Sushi Samba, um it was just like, oh my god, hallelujah. Like we I've actually got a job and I can pay my rent. And there was it just felt that was kind of I think that fed into it. We were just like, okay, well, we're back feeling a bit on our feet, and we're kind of like, you know, let's let's do it, let's start a family, let's let's try and create something. And you know, from when we had nothing a year before, we were like, well, now we have something and let's build, build, and and and that was kind of a bit of a motivation. Um yeah, sorry, I forgot what the original question was there.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

But no, I think you completely answered the question. I I guess it sounds like that moment when you realized that you were going to become a father kind of came at the same time that your life was all coming back together. You were back on track on your career, you had just gotten that big job that I don't know you can tell me, but by the sound of it, it was a big job that you had probably been chasing for a little while, at least for that time when you were working on something completely different to your expertise.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. And you know, and you know, nine months out of the kitchen, you kind of thought I thought to myself, I've forgotten how to cook, you know, like um, so it was good to get back in, you know, but it yeah, it was it was a lot, and you know, I think I was really, really lucky to get the job.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Um talented.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean I got the job from my old exec chef that um so look, he knows how I work and how you know what I do. So um and you know, today is my fifth year anniversary, which is happy anniversary. Yeah, it's uh it's a bit of a weird one actually, that's uh it come around pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Oh wow. Happy anniversary. What did you do to celebrate?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Not a lot, just worked. I made star food for the guys today, actually. Yeah, made pizzas for them. Um and yeah, so um yeah, like I say, yeah, it was kind of um I guess this job has kind of, you know, kept me. It's a bit was a bit of a lifesaver, to be honest, when I look back at it, and you know, and that really motivated me to make sure that the because it was super hard, like the first year, two years, obviously after lockdown, there was no chefs and the restaurants were half open, half closed, um busy, not busy. It was like the first year was, you know, and you coincide that with us buying a flat, um, you know, with a three-month-year-old baby. We we did a lot. I think that year there was there was a lot. 2022 was um was a busy year, yeah. I look back at it now and it was, yeah, kind of a little bit of a blur. But we did, yeah. Maybe we wouldn't make those decisions again that we did, because uh but we just felt the time was right, you know, and and uh when you do and you you know you do one thing, I think it's a bit kind of a snowball kind of thing, you know, and you've got the opportunity to then buy a house, and you're like, okay, well, when will we next get that opportunity or find the right place? And so we went for it and the place was a dump, and you know, literally got the last balls plastered three weeks ago. So it took a took a while to get it to get it into um into shape. But um yeah, that was um that was a lot to deal with. Um I think it probably took a few years off my life, but um yeah. But it's one of those things. I think you know, you do you make decisions, and even if they are super hard straight away, you just know it will get easier, and you know, you just work hard to make it become easier. I think that's the philosophy, you know. So um that's how I kind of live it. And and I was talking to my guys today about five years, and you know, can you do another five years or whatever? And I was just saying, look, it I got through the first two years, they were the hardest, and actually it has progressively got easier. And I think, you know, this year touch where nothing goes terribly wrong with Christmas has probably been uh the smoothest year I've been there. So um, yeah, that's kind of come to fruition actually. And I I think probably the same thing goes with parenting, you know, the first year was proper, hard, you know, lack of sleep, you know, no he had no kitchen, we were living out of a microwave and a makeshift sink and holes in the walls and you know, cold winters and the boiler blowing up, and you know, stuff like that. That you know, now I look back at it, you know, that last year that we've just had in the flat, it was like a dream compared to that. So it it kind of it has gone the way that we thought it would do. Which is kind of satisfying, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Is it not a chef's nightmare to not have his own kitchen?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Well, yes, I would say so. But also I have my I have my kitchen at work, so maybe that's you know, that gives me the fix whilst we we um whilst we were waiting for our own one, yeah. Yeah, it was pretty painful, I'm not gonna lie. I don't know though, if I had to pick between because we we had a the one room that was okay in the flat was the bathroom, which is not great, but it was the only one that was kind of like relatively Modern ish. So actually, I appreciated that. You know, I to have a shower twice a day, hot shower. I think maybe that's more important than having a all singing or dancing stove and oven, you know? I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

I'll take your word for it, although I do appreciate my hot shower.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a big thing. Especially when you work long hours, you know, you need to come home and have a shower and you feel human again.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Let's actually jump into that. Um the long hours working. B but actually, before we jump into that, can you paint a picture for me? Shift work. What's the reality of your days? What's a typical day looking like for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Okay, so I for my working week, I am contracted to work 48 hours uh a week, uh split over five days with two days off. Um so that my rotor breaks down this is just to explain, Tushambo is a little bit different to a normal restaurant because it opens late. So our last booking is like 11 o'clock in the evening. So a lot of restaurants, their last booking is around nine. So our whole work day is just shifted on by two hours. So most kitchens start at 8 o'clock in the morning, finish I don't know, 10 in the evening. We start at 10, finish at half eleven, twelve. So it's kind of the same, but a little bit different. So um within my 48 hours, to make my 48 hours, um I have to work three double shifts and two singles. Um I do have because I'm the head chef, I do have the flexibility to potentially move that to five kind of straight shifts, if you know what I mean. What's a straight shift? So a straight shift would be say, say my double is ten till eleven thirty. Ten a.m. to eleven thirty in the evening. Um and then my lunch shift is ten till five uh in the afternoon. Um I could potentially elongate that and say do ten till eight every day. But for one, it doesn't really work because eight o'clock's probably the busiest time in the restaurant. I can't just go, right, see you later, guys. I'm off. I don't think I'll go down real well. So um they don't really mind how you make your 48 hours, but in reality, there's only the way we do it is the best way to do it. And all my seniors, I have three other sous chefs below me, they all do that rotor. So two days off, three doubles, which is ten till half eleven, two singles. They may do a ten till five, and then and then one evening shift, which is a three o'clock start, three in the afternoon, and finish at half eleven. Um which is probably tougher because they have three late finishes, four late finishes and one early finish, when I'd have two early finishes and three late finishes, but that's my my prerogative being the hitcher. Uh and plus, because of childcare, like I couldn't do it the other way around. So um yeah, so I always look after on a Wednesday, so I always have Wednesday as my day off. Um and then my other day floats around the week. So wherever it's needed, or for example, wherever I need it at work. So it works both ways, you know, and and it's quite nice that I can write my own rotor to make that kind of happen. But generally seniors in the restaurant are normally their days off would be Sunday, Monday.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

So consecutive days. Normally it would fall on one of those two days. But again, I you know, I I can take a Friday off, I can take a Thursday off. It doesn't really matter as long as we haven't got a big function or there's no other seniors in the building to kind of look after the place. So yeah, that's my working week. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

So now that we have this picture, and thank you for explaining can you now combine this picture with your first year as a dad when it's the reality that we all know with an exhausted, you know, I was gonna say exhausted baby. The baby is probably exhausted, but with a you know, an exhausting life, really, uh learning about what it's like to be a parent with a baby that doesn't sleep through the night, baby being sick uh occasionally, um, all the requirements that come with being a parent. How did you make those two work? You you hinted on that earlier, saying that it was a very difficult year. But can you just dive a little bit deeper into that? Give me a bit of a better idea.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

It was a long time ago. But um, I do remember doing night feeds for sure. Uh being up with uh yeah, just give it I look for me, my my where I could, I would give Holly as much kind of um rest and respite as as I could. So, you know, I would always kind of um you know um the way it kind of well works out is I'm I'm a relatively light sleeper. Um so I would always be the first one to be up, basically. Um I can also go to sleep again like that. So I have this kind of I have quite a good ability where I can kind of just close my eyes and I'll be asleep within like 10 seconds. Um I think I get that from my dad. There's the genes. So I was always the one that would get up, you know, and uh and I can just survive on less sleep, you know. If I have five hours sleep, I'm okay. Um the problem is now my body's a bit like kind of trained to only sleep for five hours. So I have to kind of force myself to sleep a bit more if I can. But yeah, just it's just something that, you know, you just you get used to, basically. And I think maybe I'm a little bit easierly more easily used to it because I work shift work. So it kind of works both ways, if you know what I mean. So for the fact that I might have been getting in at, you know, half past one and getting up at half past six just for shift work, you know, like m being a chef and that was okay, I could do that, and then go to work and do it, come home, go to sleep, and you know, doing that uh with a child, it was kind of the same kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Now I have another question. Because here I think what you described was sort of life balance, I guess, between you and Holly. You've mentioned earlier that Wednesday is your day with your son.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

How early did you start having those days with him on your own? And uh what was it like? Because I'm very interested in understanding what it's like to almost be a single dad at least once a week.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah. Um so that was from pretty much the beginning, I think, because and I think maybe I did more than one day in the week. Yeah, I think maybe I did. It just kind of depended on whether my mother could do one day of the week. But I think I might at the beginning I might have done two days in the week and worked the weekends. So Holly had the whole weekend on her own, or at least half day on a Sunday, and I would come back at maybe like half past five to do the evening. But she would always have all day Saturday on her own, and I would always have Wednesday, and then maybe I would pick up another day. But then it depended on nursery, you know, as well. But I was always flexible, so if I, you know, and that was the good that's the thing that's really helped us for the fact that I'm have always been, since we've had uh our son, the head chef, the guy running writing the rotor, Holly hasn't always been in that position, you know, and she's still probably not in that position. So I guess I'm quite privileged in that. The fact that even though I'd have to do shifts that probably would seem a bit awkward for most families, I can always bend and flex and change it. So um we never get completely caught out. Because obviously my mum's about a an hour away drive, and and you know, she's 75, and it's not like she can just drop everything, and you know, my f she look kind of looks after my dad, and he's got like early onset Parkinson's. So it was kind of important for the fact that I could change my road to kind of at the drop of my hat, or at least, you know, half a week before the coming week. But yeah, I I always really enjoyed looking after on my um on my days off. I mean, that was kind of like a continuation of looking after my uh nephew. Um so yeah, it was it was good, you know, it's and I would feel I I feel like it created a really good bond with between me and him, you know. We obviously did sing song every every Wednesday morning for quite some time. Um and then yeah, we would find stuff to do in the afternoon. And I think that it kind of helps as well. Um, you know, I can do bedtime, I can do the whole routine of a day with just me and him, and he doesn't bat an eyelid, you know, like that because we've been doing that since he was a he was a baby. So, you know, of course he misses his mum, like but then uh on the other hand, Holly says when she's when I'm away on a Saturday, he's like, Oh, where's Ellie? So, you know, you get it you get it both ways, and it's I think that's quite nice that you know um he can rely on us both to be around fairly consistently. As consistently as we can be. I mean, it's not consistent at all, really, but but in his world, it is quite consistent. So, you know, yeah, in the way that he's his quite good show the both of you. Yeah, exactly. And actually, we had a little bit of an issue. Well, an issue, but in fact, doing bed times and stuff is a lot harder with both of us together because he's like super excited that he's got both of us. And actually it becomes a little bit like more of a battle when we're both there. But when it's just one or the other, it's all pretty it's all pretty uh pretty okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

That's interesting, because I was just thinking how it might be challenging, and I don't know whether it's challenging for or it would be challenging for you or challenging for him to sort of flip-flop between the way that you do things and the way that Holly does things. Um but it sounds like because this is the only reality that he's ever known, really, yeah. He kind of goes with whatever daddy says and then whatever mummy says on the days that he's with each with me.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, well, I think um Holly's pretty, you know, on it with the parenting. From the beginning, she was just really into it. She read a lot, and you know, I'm more of like a kind of I don't know, it sounds a bit kind of lazy. But I would I just, you know, I I look at my parents and I look at my grandparents and how they brought us up, and you just try and mirror that because I had a great childhood and I really enjoyed my childhood. And you know, I I definitely wasn't the perfect child, but um, you know, I think kind of go off experience rather than read a book kind of thing. But she's taught me a lot, and you know, um a lot of the things she says, she she she teaches me, uh it makes a lot of sense and brings kind of results, you know. I not all of it, but then you know, not everything's gonna work perfectly with every child because the personality is obviously completely different for every child, and uh you you kind of have to tailor it to to their to their needs, I suppose. But um, yeah, it c we kind of dovetail quite nicely, I think, um with our parenting styles. Um and yeah, I mean you know, I'm not saying it's absolutely, you know, roses and easy times like 24-7, and it's not and the only thing I think for me is is just is the is the lack of sleep thing. You know, there's there's a definite um it just makes life a lot harder when you when you haven't had enough sleep, you know. You're always a little bit shorter, you've got a little bit less patience, you know. Um and I used to say that with my dad. I mean, he was just irritable for like 15, 20 years of my childhood. Um and we were always just like, oh dear, why is this in such a bad mood all the time? And you know, if I had to work, and I now look at it and blackening out, and I'm thinking, if I had to work night shift for 15 years, I would be pissed off as well. And you know, and you've got trying to have some sleep. That was the thing we always do with kids. We always used to lose our door keys, right? So um we'd all come home from school and it's like, who's got the door key? And we all look at each other on the front door and we're like, I haven't got it. Have you got it? You got it? And then we're like, oh, who's gonna knock on the door and wake Daddy up and let get him to let us in the house? Like it would happen, you know, multiple times a month. And uh yeah, that really pissed him off. But uh yeah, so I'm a bit more understanding where he came from now. And I think we all are, you know, as as siblings, we kind of, you know, we respect him a bit more. Whereas you don't when you're a kid because you just like well. Well, you're a kid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Speaking about being a kid and not necessarily fully understanding your parents' life or job, you'll see where I'm going with that. I want to jump into food because you mentioned earlier um that you've learned a lot from um your partner on parenting, uh bringing results and all that. I have a question. Is your child a picky eater?

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Uh well, I would say no, but he he knows what he likes. He's no, he I would not I would say he's not peeking eat. I think we we never really tried anything a little bit like crazy adventurous. You know, I know as being a chef, I kind of know flavours, you know, you know, and what kind of flavours I think kind of are palatable as a small child. Um so yeah, he he eats uh a varied diet, but uh uh very varied meals, but he doesn't have a varied menu, for example. So we stick to classics, like you know, pasta bolonets, chili con carni, breaded chicken, fish pie, cottage pie, you know, like the the standard meals, and basically ones that we can batch cook, like meatballs we'll put into the freezer and stuff like that. So we don't um buy in ready meals. Uh we cook everything from scratch. But obviously there's a limit to the amount of things that you can do. So I mean, if I on a Wednesday night would do a batch cook, uh I can only really do two meals. But then you'd split that into eight portions each, so I mean there's quite a lot. But so I I he has a good a good diet, but not a crazy varied diet, I would say.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

Okay, so you make us all feel a little bit better, the ones of us that are not chefs um and don't have the skills. I like palatable. I don't think I've ever used that word um before, but now I will say it. Um let's go with flavours that are palatable. Yeah. I do like that. That's gonna make me sound so much more, you know, like I'm in the no. Um like a bit more educated uh about my kids' food.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Um, I think, you know, uh it's um it's you know, well the the last generation, for example, I think, you know, when I speak to my mum about what she used to eat as a child, you know, she used to have lamb fat on toast and kidneys and liver and you know, and that was a sign of the times, you know, that was the cheap meat, and that's what you could get hold of. And but it's not palatable for a child. And uh, you know, even a really good chef to cook a kidney that is child-friendly, I would really struggle with that. You know, you'll start you have to start with the with uh with an ingredient that you could probably get to a certain place with. You know, a piece of uh, you know, a kidney is probably a lounge kidney is not somewhere I could get to where a kid would be like, oh lovely. So, you know, you have to be realistic, I think. Um and you know, it's the most painful thing in the world to cook a home-cooked meal for a child and they just go and chuck on the floor. It's just like, oh, it's my hard work. And you know, you do as a parent end up eating some of your child's meals, but obviously, you know, if they're good meals, I don't mind eating them, you know. That's um and they're meals that I would eat. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

Has he ever visited you at work?

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yes, he's been into the restaurant a couple of times. Um I took him in uh from about one to meet to meet my kind of chefs um just briefly, and then he's been back into the restaurant a few times. Um went to Holly's old restaurant. We took we took him in there a few a fair few times. Um and he's pretty good in restaurants, yeah. He's he's got some table matters, which is nice.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Very good. Does he have a favorite on the menu?

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Um Well, in my restaurant, well, it's a bit difficult on my restaurant because I serve sushi and uh the food I serve is it's on the sweet and salty side, so yeah. I wouldn't really serve the food in the restaurant to him at home, really. But he does, he'll he'll come in and eat some plantain chips and some broccoli and some some other relatively plain stuff, some tempura bits. But yeah, no, I think he he will eat he will eat most things that you put in front of him. Um he's pretty good, to be honest with you. Um and it's you know, you will know yourself to go through phases. So there's the phase, you know, around one where they'll just eat anything. You can literally put anything in front of them. As long as it's not too salty, too hot, too sour, they'll just eat anything. You'll be surprised sometimes, you know. I remember when I took my nephew out, we took him to Camden once and gave him some crispy squid when he was like one, and he's just like, yeah, yeah. And then they'll start figuring out what they're eating, they can see it in front of them a little bit further on, and they're like, Well, what's that? What's that? What's that? And they'll separate it all out. Um he's been through that stage. Um, and then you know, then he'll suddenly he'll get to the fact that he has favourites. So he'll recognize Food and go, I want that again, I want this again, I want that again, you know. And he's kind of on that now, really, you know. But we just try and involve um introduce uh different things to him. Um but yeah, there is that I always have that, it's like little fear because I always give him what I know he likes because I just don't want to waste the food. And I think that's kind of like I think that's ingrained in me by my mum, because she's just a do not waste anything. And so rather than try him with something new that he might not like, I'm I do I I do tend to like veer towards what I know he likes. Um, which I guess is probably not great, but you know, he's got his whole life ahead of him to eat all the meals that he wants to eat and try all the different things that he wants to try. So I'm not that fast by that.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

On a very different topic. I was wondering as a father, as a young man raising a son, what is your biggest worry?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Um I try not to worry as much as possible. I'll leave that to Holly. Yeah, I don't know. I don't Most of them I I feel to myself the standards, you know, they're a bit irrational, you know. Um obviously you don't want anyone any harm to come to your child. I mean, and you don't want them to go through any trauma that's probably that's gonna stay with them or whatever. But I'm realistic, you know, kids will go through things, you know, they'll they'll get hurt. And you know, it's good that he's been in nursery for kind of quite a long period. He's come across people that he doesn't get along with or he does get along with, you know. And sometimes you kind of I don't know. I'm just kind of like, I don't want to be too overprotective uh with him, and I just want him, as Holly does, to feel comfortable and open. If anything happens to him that's not, you know, sitting well with him or something that's happened to him that's making him feel upset or whatever, that he feels comfortable to come to us to talk about. And we'll do our best to try and reassure him or fix whatever issue there may be. But um I'm a firm believer of you know, you have to kind of go through these things. You can't just protect children forever. You know, you have to go through those things. And I I feel myself slightly having three older sisters um and being the youngest that I wasn't exposed to a lot of things as a child that I kind of probably look back on now and think, you know, not that I could change it and I probably couldn't do anything about it anyway, but I do think that, you know, I grew up very late, you know? Um, and I felt that, you know, when I went to university, I just wasn't, you know, of an age maturity. I wasn't mature enough for my age, basically. And I think maybe that was because of the fact. I mean, that's a that's a circumstance thing, you know. If you're if you're the youngest and you know, you get things done for you for half your life, then you probably have to figure out how to do stuff for yourself a little bit later in life, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

Are you thinking about having other kids?

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Uh yes, we definitely have thought about it. Um it's kind of there in the background. Um I would like to have another child. I think uh if we don't, I won't be upset about it. I think we kind of got both got to the point where we're like if it happens, it happens. We won't shut the door on it. But again, I'm I'm relatively practical about it. We need a bigger house and um maybe we would like to move a little bit further out of from London. I don't know, you know, time is not on our side, I guess, but um Yeah, these things can happen very quickly, so yeah. Uh how would I deal? I think she's old enough now because we were very much like in the first two years, obviously a lot going on in our lives and a lot of things juggling around. We were just like very, very careful that we probably don't want to get pregnant again at this point because that would uh make our lives super, super hard. Um, so that was definitely you know, we planned not to have a child within another child within the first two years.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

And then, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I guess uh yeah, things happen, you know, things crop up in your life and kind of put that kind of thing on the on the back burner slightly. Um but yeah. How do you look at women that decide not to have children?

SPEAKER_04 48:07

I think that um I want to think that we are now in a society where it's acceptable for everyone to make their own choice, their own decisions. I think maybe society still will judge women a little bit more harshly for not having children uh than men.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Um I think that's true.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

I think they would probably be judged a bit more, but I wish they wouldn't. Because at the end of the day, I think that having a child is truly a life commitment that you don't necessarily understand it so much what you know, you don't necessarily understand what the true meaning of life commitment is before having a child.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

But once the child is here, you do understand it, and I think that it would be extremely unfair to impose it upon people that do not uh strongly uh want to have children. I think it would be extremely not just unfair but extremely cruel to impose a societal choice or vision upon someone that has not made this decision and does not feel like the should have to um uh bear this um decision.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah, no, I think uh definitely I think it should be the other way around, in fact. There shouldn't be if anyone's gonna get judged. Because obviously the woman has to have the child, you know, and that that's massive changes for their body, for their life, yeah, you say lifetime commitment. Um there's definitely should be a a lot of respect in for women who make the decision both ways, you know? 'Cause it's a big decision.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

It is indeed. On a lighter note. Is there anything that you feel people should know more about your profession, your industry, or just, you know, what your life looks like?

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Yeah, I think for me, obviously i it's it's a male-dominated industry. Like I would say ninety five percent. Uh male to female. I would uh maybe that's a little bit over the top, but from my experience from who I've worked with over the last 11 years, 12 years in London, yeah. Um that kind of shows how difficult it is for women to be chefs and you know, stay within this street industry if they want to have children, you know. Um it's uh nigh-on impossible, I would say. Not impossible, but but nearly and and actually not worth than not changing than staying, just to change to change a change your profession and you know find something that you can do which is beneficial to your lifestyle or having a child, you know. So um that's disappointing, I would say. Um I don't see but I think maybe that's to do I don't know, maybe that I don't know other jobs that have shift work, what their kind of gender splits are, but um yeah, it does kind of come down to the to the male doing it. And even the the men that I work with, um a lot of them are single, a lot of them are young, well not necessarily single, sorry, but young, childless. Um uh because you know, that's that's when to do this job is at its easiest. Where is it's most practical. As soon as you add a child or you add, you know, another commitment or something to it, you know, it becomes it just becomes doubly difficult, which um which is a shame. I I think there are new businesses, new restaurants coming onto the onto the scene that, you know, put their employees first uh and do, you know, friendly hours, flexible hours. Um it's just, you know. I know I'm from both sides, because obviously I write my rotors and I'm the head chef, so I need the team to work um a certain amount of hours to make the kitchen work, you know. You need the amount of people and you and you can't have endless chefs, you know, labor controls are really, really tight. So, you know, yeah, I don't see it changing anytime soon, really. Um because the hours are so unsociable, you know, especially in our restaurant. I mean you're basically doing night shifts because you know, if you're on pastry, you're fishing at one o'clock in the morning. You know, the time you got home, you're two o'clock, got to bed, it's three o'clock, you know, that's your that's your night done pretty much, isn't it? So yeah. It is it is pretty unsociable and uh and probably a young, young, more of a young person's industry. I mean, I mean that's what kind of keeps the the vi vitality and the you know the energy in in restaurants and kitchens because the you know the workforce is kind of under 30. Maybe you know under 25. That's so I I feel quite old, to be honest, uh at 39. I'm kind of, you know. I I think to myself, uh if I probably wasn't in a head chef position, I would probably be looking for somewhere else. You know, and and really, Sush Samba the money's kept me there, you know. The m the money is good. You know, we're a successful business. Turn over like 10 million a year, so they can pay their staff relatively well, but it's very demanding and they know that they ask quite a lot from you. But they pay you for it, so you know that's it. It's not the healthiest life either. You know, uh working so, for example, on a Saturday, my day on a Saturday, like last Saturday, for example, probably the busiest Saturday we've had this year. You know, I get into work early because I know we're busy. So I'm probably in at nine o'clock in the morning. I will eat uh like my lunch on the way to work. So I'll have like sandwich, yogurt. Um you know, what you normal people would have for a lunch. I would have in the breakfast I would have as my breakfast. Then because when I get to work, I'm like there in the kitchen from nine uh until probably about eleven o'clock in the evening. I might get a I'd I'll take a toilet break or two halfway through. Uh maybe I'll eat something around four o'clock, maybe a bowl of rice and some broccoli or a bit of chicken or something, and then just work straight through. And that'll be busy all the way through. I'll have tickets on from twelve o'clock until when I le and I leave probably before the other guys, so I leave at around about eleven and they're there till maybe half eleven, quarter twelve, by the time they've all cleaned down and gone. Um so yeah, it's not exactly the healthiest. It's not like that every day, but you know, you only have to do a few of those days in a row, and you're like, and then you know, Sunday I'll have Sunday off, so I'll come home. By the time I've travelled home, I believe at 11, I'm home at like 12, shower, bed by one, and then it's waking me up at half past five. So it's like uh yeah, that can be a bit grisly on a Sunday morning. Um yeah, that's it. And then, you know, if I'm you know, we might go out for the day or whatever, and probably by about half past eight in the evening, I'm like nodding off. Well, that's me done for the day, probably. So yeah, it's uh I think lack of sleep is the big thing, really. And then the fact that your body gets used to not having a lot of sleep, and I think that's the most unhealthy thing, because then when you want some sleep, you can't get it.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

I wouldn't mind getting back to doing some normal hours and some normal sleep patterns at some point. And and then also that puts me off slightly having another child, because I'm like, if I do, we have another child, then I'm just gonna go back to another four or five years of bad sleep. This sounds really selfish. But actually, yeah, it's definitely a consideration that I think about, you know, um with with the work that I do. So yeah. But not saying that that wouldn't put me off having another child, but I can see, you know, for the last five years what it's been like. So I won't know what I'm getting myself in for.

SPEAKER_04 58:18

I think we're probably getting to the end of this story. Is there anything else that you want to add?

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Um No, I look, I w I wouldn't like to let people think, you know, if they're in my position that put you off having children, whatever kind of work situation that you have, because I think, you know, everybody in the world makes families happen one way or the other, whether you have to have your grandparents involved or uncles, aunties, you know, that's a really important thing to have a support network around you. But even if you don't, you know, I think, you know, there's so much joy and fulfillment for having it with having a child that I just don't think, you know, you should ever be put off by a little bit of lack of sleep and some childcare issues because, you know, for for one thing, it's never bad forever. It always gets better. You get better at being a parent the longer you are a parent. You know, it's a bit of a roller coaster for sure.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

But um, you know, it's always a fun ride, so you know I would recommend it to anyone, regardless. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

Thank you very much. And I should have addressed you the right way, actually. Thank you very much, Chef Phil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Yeah. I I don't really like Phil calling me Chef Phil too, I see. I hear it too much, that's why. Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:57

Well, thank you very much for your time, Phil. Thank you. Chef de cuisine, Phil. Thank you very much for your time. And uh thank you very much because I know that you're coming back from a long day, a single shift. Single shift, single shift. Not that long, yes, single shift. So thank you very much for your time, um, your energy and for sharing your um experience because I think it's a lifestyle that not many of us uh will be familiar with. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I'll speak to you very soon. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Bye-bye.

unknown 1:00:39

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

Phil, thank you. Thank you for giving up your time after what I know was a long day. And thank you for showing up with such honesty and openness. It made for a really special conversation. And Holly, thanks to you too, because without that first conversation, this one wouldn't exist. Between the two of you, you've given this community such a real, rich and generous look into your world. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who might need to hear it. As always, thank you for listening, for being part of this village, and I'll see you in the next episode. You've been listening to Raising with the Village. If you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, whether that's Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or Deezer, so you never miss a new story. New episodes come out every Thursday. You can also find us on Instagram at Raising with the Village or on our website at raisingwith.co.uk, where you'll find more about the project and past episodes. If you have a story to share about parenting, step parenting, or just navigating family life, I'd love to hear from you. You can get in touch through the website or send a message on Instagram. Because every story shared helps another parent feel seen, heard, and supported. Until next time, bye bye.