SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey village. Before we dive in, if you haven't already, hit follow on your favourite podcast platform. It takes two seconds, it costs nothing, and it means the world to me. Right, let's go! Hi, I'm Megha, and this is Raising with the Village. A podcast where real parents share real stories so we can all feel a little more connected on this wild journey of raising children. Before we begin, I want to take a moment to let you know that in today's episode we talk about baby blues and postnatal mood. If you are in a vulnerable place right now, please be gentle with yourself as you listen. And if you need support, there are resources in the show notes. Some of you will remember Candida, but she joined us back in episode six. Two boys, a newborn, and a cold covered super a line perfectly summed up what those early days with a baby actually looked like. And today, she's back because there was more to say. Today, Candida and I are talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough airtime. Something that happens to many mothers and yet somehow still manages to catch almost everyone off guard. Something that when it does happen, it can leave you feeling not just low, but lonely, confused, and quietly ashamed for not feeling the way that you thought that you were supposed to feel. Not postnatal depression, but the deep that real hormonally driven, emotionally disorienting that can settle over you in those early weeks after having a baby. The one that nobody really wants to talk about. The one that sits a little awkwardly next to all the congratulations cards. And you must be so happy with the messages. Because what happens when you're not just happy? What happens when you are also exhausted and overwhelmed and feeling something you can't quite name? And the world around you doesn't really have space for that. Candida talks about the hormonal journey of breastfeeding, the highs and the lows that came with it. Because breastfeeding can be a beautiful experience, but it can also feel like a tie, like a weight, like your body is no longer entirely your own, and your baby is completely and utterly dependent on you in a way that however much you love them, they can start to feel suffocating. And then there is the ending, that part that nobody tells you about. Because somehow in all the conversations about how to start breastfeeding, nobody ever really tells you about how to stop, how to end that chapter. Whether because you're going back to work, or because you are ready for a little freedom back, or simply simply because you are done. And what that transition feels like, both physically and emotionally. This is a conversation I think that every new mother needs to hear. Not because it will make the hard path easier, but because it will make you feel less alone in them. Here is Candida. Hi. Hi.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I'm very good. Thank you. Very good. It's sunny and awesome.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

I was gonna say the same thing. You're a true London, you're a true UK person now, isn't it? The sun is shining.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

The sun is shining, everything is so much better.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

It is. It's like you're on holiday.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I know, I know. Oh, all right. Quick introductions. Who are you?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Candida. I'm Candida, Mum of Three.

unknown 4:32

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Have we met with you before?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

We have, we have. We had a nice conversation a couple of months ago where I shared my story of all three of my children and what that was like. Yeah. Bringing them into the world.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

And so um after you shared your story, you you and I had a conversation and you said, Oh, actually, I've got a few more things that I'd like to share about my experience. And one of the starting points was your breastfeeding experience. Yeah. And so I thought that it would be interesting to go to dive into your breastfeeding experience together, maybe with a bit of mental health wrapping around that. Because maybe for the women that have experienced breastfeeding, they will understand that breastfeeding comes with ties. Yeah. Maybe we can say that. Yeah. And so I thought it would be very interesting to hear from you what your experience was. No, it sounds really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Oh, um, just should I just start? Should I just kick off? Yes. I mean, to start off with, I I breastfed all three of my children, um, each of them for a year plus. I can't remember how many months. But I didn't know anything about breastfeeding before breastfeeding. I didn't, even when I was pregnant, I didn't have this thing in my mind that I'm gonna breastfeed my children. With my background, I didn't actually see that much many people breastfeeding growing up. I always knew about bottle feeding children. I genuinely hadn't I had seen women breastfeeding children, but I hadn't, it didn't click. That's what I have to do when I have a child or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Were you breastfed as a child?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

I was, but like for four weeks or for four or six, like for not for long, not more than a month.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Do you know what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

I think my mum said I didn't want to. That's what she kind of. Oh, you didn't want to. That's what she's doing.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

You were not like maybe not lynching or something.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

She said that sort of thing. She didn't necessarily go into it, but yeah, I didn't want to. Um, and I think it was the same with my siblings, but I think there's also a culture behind it too, that in some cultures it's believed that the breast milk doesn't fill you up as much. So subsidizing that with the formula to keep the baby full is better and it grows them more. But again, I didn't have any of this stuff in my mind. I just remember maybe uh even before I was pregnant, I just got married, and my cousin um somebody said something about children to me and feeding. And someone said something about, oh, but when you have your child, you you know, bottle feeding is best. And I remember a cousin of mine came in, she said, no, she's gonna breastfeed. That's what she's gonna do. And she was so strong about it. And she was kind of almost arguing with this other lady, but I had no that I didn't even know what side, like I didn't know what anything of none of it was, which is so funny to think about now, um, with everything that I know. So um, yeah, got pregnant. Again, didn't have an idea of how I was gonna feed my child. Um, but I remember there was quite a big push when I went to midwife appointments on this breastfeeding, breast is best kind of thing. And it was pushed quite a lot. Um, a lot more than I I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Was it a bit of a cultural um maybe sort of battle in your mind at that point when you heard that from the medical perspective, uh kind of the authority, it was sort of breast is best. Yeah. Whilst from a cultural background point of view, you mentioned your aunt. Definitely. You mentioned um your own mom as well. And maybe also it was a different time, um, that it was more of a no-no bottle is best because that's what is going to keep your baby full.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah, I went through that massively. Like I can go into even more detail, but yeah, I went through that a hundred percent. Um it definitely a culture thing played into it. I nobody ever spoke to me about breastfeeding, you know, while I was pregnant, I never had any conversations with I don't know, older aunties. I was in a church at the time. There was no conversation about, okay, so you're gonna breastfeed it. I didn't have any idea. Um, and I was 29 going on 30, so it wasn't as if I was some young spring chicken. I was a seasoned adult. Um, but yeah, so I kept hearing stuff like that, and I went to a breastfeeding class, think was put on by the hospital for like an hour. And I do remember friends of mine, a friend of mine had had a baby, and she said, you know, I really wanted the baby to latch. You know, I was so happy that my child latched. Like, and I was like, what again, it was so foreign to me. Like, what is this whole thing? Um, and I do remember once I had my first son, um, I remember the midwife kind of put the baby to me and he started nursing. And then another time he needed some milk, and I gave him it again. But then I I can't remember if I mentioned it in the last podcast, but I do remember feeling like I don't know if this baby's getting anything from me. Did I say that the last time? You did say that. Yeah, that was like my experience. Yeah, that was my first experience. Because I didn't know I maybe I didn't do the research, but I didn't know what kind of came after that. Um, and that was it. And luckily for me, it was a nice start to the breastfeeding journey. Um, you know, you have the ups and downs of like the baby blues, and I mentioned that before as well, that once my milk came in, these are some of the things that I didn't know of before. As soon as my milk came in, that's when my kind of mood dropped. Um Do you want to tell me a bit more about that? Yeah, so once, so after I had first had the baby, maybe three or four days later, um, in the middle of the night, you know, my breasts were really, really hard. And I had um like hot flushes, just woke up like really sweaty. And I kind of didn't know what it was. Um, but I'd spoken to a friend of mine who had a baby a few months later who explained that that's when the milk's coming in. Um and as soon as that happened, that's I felt that my mood dropped. You know, I I was on a high the first four days. Um, probably the sleep deprivation probably started to creep in. Um, and yeah, I just felt started to feel it, feel really down after that happened. Um, my breasts were really hard. I had a pump, so I was pumping, but it didn't seem to work. Um, and I had a midwife appointment or like the health visitor appointment. And she'd give me some advice and said, have a hot bath, just get in the bath, and after that, you know, massage them a little bit and then start pumping, and then you know, they will start to get, they'll start to regulate. But it was a clear time for me that once the four days hit, I knew like my mood just dipped. And it was like that for about a week after, where I was just feeling really like low, like really, really low.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Did you mention that to your health visitor or your midnight?

SPEAKER_00 11:37

I only mentioned, no, I didn't, I think, but nah, I didn't. It was one of those things when you go into the appointment, it's purely for the baby. They say how are you? But I was fine in terms of physically. So I wouldn't have said to her, This is how I feel. I was with my husband, we came in, weighed the baby, checked me over, checked my health, and then off you go, kind of thing. Um so the the mechanics were fine.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, the mechanics are fine. So it was fine, and yeah, the mental health aspect of things were not mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

No, they say how are you? But how are you it was not as strong enough. What the how are you mean? Yeah, and I don't fit and I've I'm not somebody that's had issues with my mental health before. So I didn't necessarily understand that this was what it was. I didn't know that either. And um also actually, I you said, did I mention things? I did mention it to my mum at one point and a cousin of mine. Um culturally, they were like, you've just had a baby, you need to be happy. Yeah, you need to be happy, you need to be thankful. This is what you wanted. Like that was kind of what I was told. I do remember that, and I remember complaining about feeling tired and just feeling down, and that was, you know, probably a culture thing, which in their mind, I'm sure they were trying to uplift me. But it just wasn't helpful when you're feeling like that. You need the you need the tools to actually get over how you're feeling or understanding of this is the baby blues, this is what you're going through. But I spoke to my husband about it. Um, and I said, So I'm just feeling so down. I feel like I'm never gonna laugh again. Like that's how low I actually felt to the point where I actually said, I don't, I I feel like I'm never gonna laugh. Um and yeah, we can we can dive into like how I felt, but there was like a range of feelings. Um, one of them was just the fact that I felt like my life had like I life had changed overnight. And I feel like I loved this thing so much that I'm never gonna be able to do anything outside of him because I need to make sure he's safe all the time. So now it was like feeling trapped, that's the word. Yeah. That's that's that's how it felt. But it it almost came, you know, once you're pregnant, it almost didn't click that the I had a baby until four days, even though I had like nine months to prepare. It almost hit me all at the same time and couldn't really comprehend everything. So it came out in that sort of way.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Where were you living at the time? Were you still at the hospital? Were you back home? Home. You were back home.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah, I was home. Was home, um, had my mum um with me and lived with my husband. So we had lots of support. Um, really lovely time because I had, you know, family helping out. It was really, really nice, but the feelings were still there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

What sort of feelings? Because you said you could, you know, dive into it a bit more. I'd love to understand that because I think it's so Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

It's important to know. Yeah, it's really important to know because I think, gosh, it's really it's a really high amount. Obviously, I can't say the exact stats, but it's a really high amount of women that feel down after having babies. So I feel like, why do we not talk about it? Because so many people feel down after having a baby. It should almost be people should not expect it, but be so aware of it that when it happens, you're like, oh, I'm so prepared. Yeah, you should be prepared because it's it's almost like an it potentially it's kind of a natural thing. Your issue level drops. And in order for you to get back to where you need to be, certain things happen to your body, and part of it is that you feel that way. Um, so my feelings were, yeah, just feeling like I I couldn't laugh again, um, just feeling so trapped. Um, the breastfeeding was something to get used to because it was constant all the time. Uh I think there's a certain, you know, when your child is going through certain leaps, they just do not come off of you. Like they are on you the whole time. Just remember being at the corner of my sofa, had snacks there, and I was just there for hours for the first couple of weeks. I just didn't move. I loved the breastfeeding, but I was like, wow, is this my life forever?

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Like this is just you couldn't, I couldn't see anything past that. Um, and the nice, you know, going upstairs to the room was almost like doomsday because I I was going upstairs to not sleep. Do you know what I mean? So that so I was like, Well, my I'm going upstairs. You know, usually you go upstairs because you're gonna have a nice sleep. I'm going upstairs to constantly be woken up. Like all of those things, I was just feeling like this is awful. Not the baby, I love the baby, I love, you know, but the experience of it of what it really was.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I think I think I'm so glad that you've mentioned that because I think it's important to separate um almost, you know, in that situation, the fact that there is you and the baby, and there is you as you, yeah, who you were before, and that's who's changed. And so your feelings, at least in your case, they they were not towards the baby, but they were more towards yourself. Um and it was a case of well, what's my life now?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

And you don't and it almost when you have a baby, especially the early days, you feel like it's gonna last forever. Like because the day, you know, the the saying the days are long, but the years are short, and the all these cliches, they they they come from the right place. Like it's so true. It feels like this is forever. Imagine not sleeping. You don't have 24 hours anymore. Like everybody has 24 hours where they sleep. You just have constant, like your life, there is no shut off for you. There's no end to your day. You're just going and going and going. That's why it feels so long. And you know, listening to other like podcasts with other mums talking about how they feel baby blues and things, women feel it even it's not even a support thing. Like some women have all the support in the world. They have nannies, chefs, cooks, and they still go through it. You know, so it's not even just the support, or it is just sometimes it's just the hormonial feeling because no matter what, you've had a baby, it's passed through, you're you're not ever going to be the same again. Not in a bad way, but you're never gonna be the person that you were before. You can't be. It's such a big, massive change that you can't even comprehend, you know. So yeah, I definitely felt felt down for a few weeks. Um, but I think what helped me is I I started going out. I think when my son was about three weeks, I started to go to playgroups from three weeks old. I would go with my mum and he was so tiny. But just going out and speaking to other mums, I think that's when things really changed for me and starting to get the hang of it and starting to get the hang of, you know, breastfeeding and starting to hang the hang of how do you actually change the nappy? And when I started to get into the flow of it, I did have um, yeah, definitely felt a lot better. The obviously the sleep deprivation is still there, but that's a whole different thing. But in terms of my mood, it was the same. Um, it was a lot better in ha in terms of how I felt.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Uh a question that came to me actually was um you mentioned that obviously you had heavy mental pain. I was wondering, linked to breastfeeding, did you have physical pain as well?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

With the breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

With the breastfeeding, yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I, you know, I actually didn't. I didn't have any breastfeeding. I had only initially when the when I had the milk um and that came in, and there were times where if I hadn't fed for a little bit or the baby slept a little longer, that's when I had the pain, but there wasn't any constant pain that I had. So I f I do feel like I was quite lucky in that respect. Um, I didn't necessarily use any specific creams. I had my baby show, I had all these different Lansino creams and all of that. I was expecting to use all of these different things for my breast. Um, but I didn't I didn't have those, luckily.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

So and my second question was here we're talking about your experience with your firstborn. Did it compare in any way with your second and thirdborn?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

In terms of the breastfeeding or the moods or um both actually.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah. Let's start maybe with the moods, yeah. And then we can see if there is any parallel as well with the breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I think with the breastfeeding with the second, um, that again got on to off to a good start. So again, I just felt like I was quite lucky that I was already into the flow of it. My son was born 22 months after my first son. So I had only just stopped breastfeeding my toddler maybe four months before, or even three months. I thought I was gonna tandem feed. Like I didn't think he was gonna like let me go. Um, so I was already kind of into the flow of that. And when it came to the moods, I think that because I had such a small gap between the children and I was looking after a toddler. Uh, a few weeks after I just hadn't even thought about my mood, to be honest. It wasn't even a thought of mine. I had just felt like I was just going and going and going and going. Um, it wasn't until a friend of mine I was speaking to her. She'd had a baby maybe six months before, and she was talking about bonding with her son and that she had found it hard because her son was in NICU. So she was, she found it, the the you know, the bonding situation a bit a bit difficult. And as I was like trying to talk her through, like, you know what, yeah, you've got this, I started to think, wait a minute, my son at the time was three weeks. And I I I was like, wait a minute, I don't feel like I've bonded with my son. I didn't even think about it. He didn't even, whenever he was on my breast to breastfeed, I don't think I was even looking at him much. Because I was always looking at my firstborn, checking what he's doing, where's he going? He was just always on my arm. The experience was so different because I didn't have any distractions when I had my firstborn. I could just look at him in the rocking chair, stroke his you know, hair and just but with a toddler, it's just not like that. And it wasn't until she had said that then I thought about it and I thought, wait a minute, I've not actually bonded. I didn't feel like I'd bonded with the baby. I just felt like I had just had a child and had something in my arm kind of thing. Um and that got to me quite quite a lot. Like when that penny dropped I really got into my head about it. Um again I spoke to my husband I said, do you feel like you've bonded with the baby? He was like well no because I don't really bond with them that much at this stage just really you're you're the one that's doing the bonding. I'm with our two-year-old um and yeah that's kind of I I I then made a conscious effort to bond with him but it did take some months before I felt like that kind of happened.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

A difference now? So obviously now we are many years later um both your sons are that much bigger they are independent um young boys. Do you s still feel a difference in your relationship with your firstborn and your secondborn because of this different start with their life?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Well I don't feel it's hard to say because you just never know where things come from. They've got such different personalities. But I think that within myself there's like a tad bit of guilt like if I'm being completely honest with my secondborn the fact that they were so close together and I didn't necessarily get to have that specific like real one-on-one time. And also I didn't feel like the bonding was you know how it was with my firstborn and it how it was with my lastborn that there's a little bit of a soft spot for my middle son. I hate to kind of admit that um not that he's treated any differently so I think although not that others say that. They'll tell you when they grew up yeah yeah but it's it's just like a little soft spot where I and I think it's it's getting better now. I think there was like a bit of guilt to be honest. Like truthfully there was like some sort of guilt that I had that probably carried a bit where I was just like you know what just give him whatever he wants.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah. I remember you said last time when we um when we chatted that um you had been doing a lot of reading about the position in the family. Birth order blues. Yes birth exactly birth order. And do you think it's something that played in your mind as well?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Um not yeah once my daughter came along yeah definitely so once he became the third middle child yes the last three years um yeah it has it has kind of played on my mind. So I do try we try and and my husband's a middle child as well so he's quite conscious about it. It wasn't until the other day he mentioned that I'm the middle child. Middle children he said something about middle children they're they're not as can't remember verbatim what he said but it was almost like he's in a disadvantage because he's a middle child. He's six years old I was like no you know um but yeah I I we do we are quite conscious with it. Um and I think because of he my firstborn is is more can be a bit more emotional it's a bit louder. If he doesn't like something you know about it you you kind of know where you stand with him at all times. With my middle son because he's a bit more well behaved don't really know where you stand with him. He can it's very easy for him to just float under the radar and not give him that kind of attention because he's not crying for it or grabbing it that you have obviously my three-year-old where yeah you know where you stand with her. And my husband actually mentioned it the other day he's like just because he's like well behaved and he doesn't like to say much, we have to make sure that we are consciously ensuring that he's on the best path for him. So yeah is he it's easier to kind of forget the middle child especially if they are well behaved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

I think that that's very interesting. Can we just go back to your experience with your firstborn you said at some point that one of the feelings that you had um during your baby blues is that you felt trapped into your new experience of motherhood into this new role. Do you want to tell me a bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah I think so I felt so in in two different ways I think it was feeling trapped because I had this baby that I loved so much but I didn't want to get away from like there was times where and I was other mums about this as well there's times where you just I just wanted to run away because it was so much you know having the baby dependent on you you're you're running your home there's so much going on um and it's actually funny because as a friend of mine had said that in in Ghana they say don't let a new mum out the house because she might not come back.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Is it what they say?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Thoroughly this is what she has said to me that they're like don't let them out because if they have the baby and they and they let out this house they're not coming back. So it's it's just all a lot you know but I think with the breastfeeding specifically I think once I got into the breastfeeding and I I realized and knew about all of the different benefits of the breastfeeding I I knew that I wanted to make it to six months and just exclusively breastfeed the baby that was a choice that I had made but with that comes a massive massive sacrifice on your whole life you know if you're combi feeding you can leave your child with another caretaker or your partner and sorry can we just define combi feeding basically could this different definition of combi feeding. Oh okay all right well if there is so combi in the sense what I mean is if you give your child formula yes okay so that's another alternative type of milk for the baby as apart from physically from your breast you know so um and I know there's different types of feeding because there's women that exclusively breastfeed or there's the ones that exclusively pump pump as well. But the bottle feed but with the breast but with the breast milk yes there's there's different kinds of ways but if you are exclusively doing it from your breast I don't know if that's called exclusive I'm presuming in the bottle is exclusive as well isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah no but I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

If it's from your breast that that baby is going to be attached to you for s until they're on food that's a massive massive sacrifice and I wanted to do it because I I thought that this was what's best for my baby and I also could I was in the I was in a situation where I was able to I was able to produce the milk I don't take that that for granted but once you're into the flow of it it is it is really it was really really hard for me because even things like going out to do my nails you know sometimes I couldn't even do that. You don't want to bring a baby into a nail shop or go in to do your hair or just doing little things for yourself you can't do it. There's no I my children have never been on a on a clock or on a schedule when they've been under six months. I know there's some people that are able to schedule feeds and think I've never done any of those things. It's just been purely on demand and um I am proud of myself being being able to do it but at the same time it it was a massive it was a massive sacrifice on my life and then you know you're also in a sense battling the culture as well because culturally in in my culture or some of my family members just didn't understand why I was doing it. And there was quite a push to say how is anyone else supposed to look after the baby if you're not going to you know why is the baby just on you all the time and that that was quite hard for me as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I remember last time that you mentioned that you have you you do have your village around you you have your mum you have your um father-in-law um you you have family around you and you've you've just mentioned how is anyone else supposed to look after the baby if baby is always on you.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Were you able to get support or did you want um support with looking after the baby or were you more looking for support with I don't know making sure that the laundry is done the you know um that the house is running that's the that's the thing it's like you're in a rock and a hard place because you want help with the baby but you don't want help with the baby because you want to be looking after the baby um and yeah I think for me I was more than happy to be with a baby but I'd rather somebody just do the house cook my meals clean up and that's not exactly something that our 70 something year old parents were able to come and do. So uh that was yeah that's something I had to just make that decision and yeah I it was it was hard. I remember there was a time where I went to a friend's birthday for a couple of hours it's around the corner from my home I left my son with my husband. I think that was the first time I left him thinking it must have been about four months. And yes my breasts were getting very sore but I knew I could make it to the end of the meal but the when it comes to these breastfed babies sometimes they take the bottle or they don't and I he had breast milk in the bottle but I think that might have been one of the first times he'd actually had a bottle so it could have just gone either way but we just thought let's just give it a go and yeah two hours later I got the call and I was like you've got to come home you know you're starving yeah you've got to go and I could just hear the screeching in the background and I I got in that car and I ran home. It was like have you seen the film Mrs. Delfire when she just runs and she's just running to she's like help is on the way that was me I just ran home dived onto the couch I was like come here that was actually my life I've got Mrs. Delfire in my head do you know what I'm talking about that scene I don't know why I have the scene where where he he she um puts his face in the in the um like in the tarp help is on the way that was me I ran home and got that baby but yeah so I I I definitely think that with my advice to women when they are going through breastfeeding to know if they decide they want to exclusively breastfeed they need to know what kind of comes with that. It's not it's not easy and I know sometimes the um NHS they are pushing for women to exclusively breastfeed breast milk is you know medically best for the children but it's not the only option for everybody and it's not the best option for everyone. You know that's one thing. I think that's that's what's important. Yeah it's not the best option for everybody it really it really isn't. It works in my case and I'm very thankful. However I've got friends of mine who um one of my friends she was told to exclusively breastfeed for six weeks and then after that she could introduce the bottle or the dummy and that sort of thing. But she wasn't planning on exclusively breastfeeding. That wasn't what she wanted to do. And after the six weeks once that once her son had got used to that breastfeeding after six weeks she tried to introduce these things and they it didn't work. So she was now stuck having to do this exclusively when that was not what she wanted to do. So that's another thing to kind of bear in mind as well you know you have to you have to kind of know know what you're getting in for not know what you're getting into.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah. No it can be a beautiful commitment. Yeah but yeah but one you want to make you know yes because the freedom aspect of it and coming back to your comment earlier of feeling trapped it does come with that aspect of is my child completely dependent on me?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

And then until when? Yeah until when when when does it end?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Exactly and you know you have some children in they don't start eating straight away at six months. They don't really start eating until like 10 11 months if that you know so they're still going to be dependent on you after the six months you can maybe add things in there but they're still going to depend on you for months and months. Um so it just it really depends but then you know when people are ready to stop there's ways that they can also stop but it's not something I've ever done.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Well actually good because that was my question. That was going to be my question stopping because you mentioned that when you had your second child your firstborn had just stopped breastfeeding sort of maybe three four months before that. Was that something that you engineered or was that something that he naturally did?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

He kind of walked away from breastfeeding I think it was a combination I probably would have continued but I think that I'm just one of those people that I just don't ever want to give up I just would continue forever breastfeeding if somebody didn't say knock knock so it was like my husband was like you know he's he's a toddler now you're gonna have another baby you need to maybe stop this breastfeeding but don't get me wrong tandem feeding you can do it if people want to go out there and have breastfeed three, four babies like they actually can women can. Women can breastfeed other people's children like you can um but it was for our family we were like you know you'll we would rather just have one so I had kind of stopped him myself but every now and again at night time he would feed and I think we went on holiday once and he completely forgot. And when we came back I think he tried once and he actually I think the chain the taste had changed. He hadn't had it for a couple of weeks but I remember him tasting it and looking at me and going yuck so I don't and this was a couple of months before I gave birth I think they say apparently that it changes isn't it? Yeah this taste changes and it wasn't to his liking so he he just left me um but I think the so that was a bit easier in terms of weaning but I think for my other two children the weaning process was not as easy um for myself and for them.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah because I think this is um and you can tell me your thoughts on that but I think that's actually very interesting that at least here in the UK the NHS is supporting breastfeeding very strongly however there is no real end game to that you know how it starts and if you're lucky of course it goes well and that's fantastic and everyone's happy but maybe one day you want to keep your body to yourself. Yeah yeah and you're going back to work or you've got you know whatever reason um maybe you know at night for example you may want to um stop breastfeeding because you you know whatever reason you want to sleep main reason one one reason um and I feel like there's not much guidance on how to end breastfeeding there really isn't and I've heard it several times people who said oh yeah you know um when you you see those um toddlers that are breastfeeding until fairly late and you're you know some people have like the kind of like judging things like that this child is like is walking and talking they should not be breastfeeding yeah also how do you stop the breastfeeding yeah I I think once they're past a certain age it's just up to you both need to kind of be in it.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Do you know what I mean? In order for both of you to be happy because it's complementary after a certain time opposed to you know under the first certain year. World Health Organization recommends children be breastfed for two years. That's how long they have recommended that and in different countries they do different things. In the UK yeah past like six seven months people will start asking like when are you gonna stop that's how it goes in the UK but then I've got a friend she who's from um Eastern Europe and she has said that over there they breastfeed till much much later to the point she even remembers it. You know they breastfeed for a long time. So it just depends but for me it is culturally exactly it it really is culturally um different cultures I yeah for my for my firstborn so he he weaned himself kind of naturally ish. The second one um he was a year I'd gone back to work and to be honest I probably wouldn't have weaned him that to me it was still early I know 13 months is not to many people but it's such an individual thing. He was going to nursery I was going back to work and yeah I one day I just said you know what this is the last time and he didn't seem bothered by it which was a bit heartbreaking for me. He didn't seem bothered I just remember playing yeah exactly he was just playing with his brother he didn't seem bothered but then I had to breastfeed him a little longer because I um was starting to swell so my breast was starting to get engorged and that's when I had to just be like actually you know what I'll come over here I need your help a couple of times but he was quite easy to wean I don't remember having too much issue but with my thirdborn my daughter that was m months to the point where I had to just go cold turkey it was horrible and I think in hindsight I wish that I had waited a little bit longer. I think she was about 15 months but I think I yeah in hindsight I I wish that I had just taken a bit more time and not done it then.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

What why did you do it then? Did you do it because you were a bit maybe tapped out with that and you're like or what why did you do it then?

SPEAKER_00 40:16

I think it was kind of I going back to work um she was going to childcare and I just felt pressure to be honest. That was it in all honesty it was just pressure. If it was just up to me I would have continued but I definitely felt like it was pressure so I feel if it was now I would have just continued a little longer because what happened after I had weaned her I felt kind of low like I I I did have the blues. Yeah I did have blues I don't you know I didn't don't remember having that with the others but I definitely felt like there was I was low after I had stopped and I think I stopped prematurely for myself. But it's weird living in the UK people would look at you and think 15 months or 16 I can't remember how many months we she was in her early toddler. You know people think 16 months you're still breastfeeding then you're upset about the fact that you're gonna stop you know that's how it's it was your last child it was my last child and then I was away from her for four days a week so it's just it all happens all at once four days a week you're away from her you're no longer breastfeeding you've got a whole different life and then the thing that used to connect you you're not kind of doing that. And I mean there's other ways to connect to your baby you can pick them up you can hold their hand read to them and stuff like that but breastfeeding is such a special kind of thing that you own well for me you know I'm only going to do that at a specific time in my life it's very finite. It's coming to an end it will eventually end. Um so yeah I wish I'd stayed a bit longer and just done it for myself but I just felt a bit of pressure um but then I then felt yeah the um by doing that I kind of paid a paid a price for it because I did get very low for some time afterwards. But then yeah as you said it was it's partly because it was my last child as well and it was very very emotional for me. So I should have I should have just taken my time and just been like whatever I'm just gonna continue until you know when she's ready or when I'm ready which wouldn't have been much longer but I I don't think I would have passed two years or something. But you know doing things before it's time you do feel it.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

It's all it's all very intense.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah and I think it's a good conversation to have about how to stop because I don't think you hear that much about how to stop people look whenever somebody wants to stop breastfeeding they're always asking what do you do what do you do how do you do it because they don't speak much about it. NHS do talk all the time do breastfeed breastfeed okay but what about when I don't want to breastfeed anymore what do I do then when I have a clingy baby how do I how do I transition out of that? Because there's dangerous ways of stopping as well you have to be careful you can't just stop cold turkey because that also isn't good for the mum you know you can you can get I can't remember the name of it but you know when you your breasts swell so much and mastitis that's I have a friend that went into hospital for that. That's quite that can be really dangerous if you get an infection. So people also need to know how to stop and the safest way to stop for the mother and also how to make sure the child is pacified and you know um how to kind of transition for the child so it's not such a you know it it's not such a shock for the child as well. So for both for both parties it needs to be done in a particular kind of way. Um so I feel lucky with the first two I was able to kind of do that. But with my last one, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't like the greatest time.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yeah especially because um at least with your timeline and um if you're in the UK it happens At a time when you don't really have any um connections with definitely not with your midwives. Yeah, that's true. It's been a very long time since you've spoken to your midwife at this point. Um even the health visitor, uh, which is uh another sort of pillar um support into your early years in you know parenthood.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Um but you don't really have those connections with them and it's not something that's really talked about.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

No, you wouldn't go to your doctor and say, How do I stop breakfast?

SPEAKER_01 44:34

You don't call your doctor to say, Hey, can you please help me with that?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

No. So you wouldn't even call it a breastfeeding line because you think I mean you could. Yes, you could. But would you think you couldn't think that because you they usually to help you breed, aren't they? And that is actually a a a time, but there there's yeah, there is benefits to I found when the my children stopped breastfeeding. I found that they were able to sleep a lot better and their food intake increased in my experience. Uh, can't speak for obviously everybody, I'm not a doctor, but there were benefits to it which I did see pretty immediately that also allowed me to think, okay, this is okay. Like they are actually going to be fine. Um, I had a whole bunch of milk in the freezer stashed where I knew I was gonna stop. I had so many like packets, just I think they say you can keep it up to like a year or something like that, actual breastfeeding packs. They didn't have them.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah, I was gonna ask, did they keep on drinking the breast milk? No, they weren't interested by then, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

I did, I think I gave it to some of them in the bottle, but they just didn't bother. They just wanted by then they were just like, no, I'd rather rub some porridge, mum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah, and I know some people put breast milk in porridge. Yeah. Sometimes they do that. But then surely if you put it in there, you heat it up. Is the same benefits in there? I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Because I know people that make like breast milk porridge. Yeah. But no, it wasn't something that I'd that I did. Good idea though.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Maybe one for someone else. Exactly. Right. Anything else that you want to share about your experience? Again, with that sort of dual aspect of the story, breastfeeding and the connection that you have with your child, your kids, and the mental health uh aspect that comes with it, because as we've seen in in your story, it kind of started with it, with the hormone's and that blues that came, uh, and it also ended with it. Um gosh. Uh you wined your daughter.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah. I think, you know, now I have the knowledge of kind of what what, you know, you do go up and down, up and down. I think that is helpful when you're armed with knowledge and you kind of know something is happening and or going to happen. So when I had, you know, by the time I got to my third child, I was a bit more seasoned when it came to the breastfeeding. And I probably I could have even had baby blues when I had my daughter, but because I was so knowledgeable about things, you kind of know how to keep yourself afloat a bit more for me. I was kind of I was a bit more understanding. And I I probably had days where I did feel down, but it I probably was able to pull myself out of it because I knew what the reasons were. But when you have no idea, you don't know what's happening to you. Your body's gone through this whole change. However, the babies come out, it's a massive change. It it really does affect you. And I do think all women are affected in some sort of way mentally from having a baby. You just can't, you know, you can't go through maybe some people have gone through mega surgery, or if they've had a C-section, they've either had a natural birth, which hurts. Any kind of which way you slice it. Excuse the button. Um I was gonna say literally. Yeah, literally, however way you were going to kind of go through something. So with um, I I felt that at times breastfeeding actually really helped with my mental health. Like so many times I actually felt that it was something that gave me comfort. And I used to be, I can't remember if I've said it before, but I did like a course on breastfeeding at the time. Um, and they say it's it's it's a something that's mutually beneficial for the child as well as the mother. And I definitely felt that I really did reap a lot of benefits from that. It calms me down so much, even if it's after a long day, and you've had just a child that's just worn you so thin, and you can just sit there and just breastfeed and just take a minute and just scroll on your phone, you know. So I felt like I was, it helps me so much in my motherhood journey to the point where um I think part of the reason why I didn't want to wean is because I I didn't actually know how to do motherhood without breastfeeding. Do you know what I mean? Like there was times, especially with my firstborn, I was like, wait, how do I actually look after a baby if they're not breastfeeding? Like, what do I do when he like he's going crazy? Because all I do now is just grab him and I'm like, here you go. The children didn't have any dummies. So another thing that the health visitor told me not to do, another one of those, don't give him a dummy, why not? I shouldn't give my child a dummy. No, it's this, this, and this. Oh, okay. So I'm just gonna just literally do this raw. That's how it felt. So um, yeah, uh I wanted to kind of end with just saying that yes, there's a lot of a sacrifice that comes with it, but there's the benefits for the mother specifically. We know that we all know the benefits for the baby, but there's so much benefits for the mum that happen when you breastfeed. Um, so something I would I would highly recommend to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

I know I actually said last words um earlier, but um can I share something that you've mentioned to me just before we started recording? And you said um I could have another baby any day, but I would not want to be a first-time mum.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Yeah. Every ever again. Yeah. We we said that before that we just said we wouldn't want to ever have a firstborn. And I mean, there's so much beauty when it's your first time, isn't it? Like everything's so exciting, and you know, you're learning on the go, but it's it's really hard. Like it's so tough having, you know, going into something and just not knowing, and every baby is different. I mean, fundamentally, humans have the same, you know, the same sort of thing happen with all humans, but it's just so it's something really magical, but it's very, very hard. And I remember when I went to a soft player years ago when I had my firstborn, and there was a lady and she had three children. And I think my son must have been about one. The lady was very put together and she had three children, and her children maybe like, you know, six, four, and two. And I remember saying to her, like, how I said, excuse me, I'm so sorry, but how how are you put together with makeup? Your hair is done. You've got three children. Like, how have you done that? And she said to me, she was like, Oh, is that your first child? And I was like, Yeah, I've only got one. And she said, Yeah, see, you've she said, You've got one. Like, this is your firstborn, it's really hard. And I was like, No, but you have three. She said, No, no, no, no. See, no, the the maths, don't look at the maths. It's not how it works. It's not how it works. I've got three children, yeah. So it's very different for me. You've got one, that's your first child. It is really hard. So don't think you're gonna come out being put together. You're not you're not there, you haven't earned your stripes, hun. So don't don't compare yourself to anybody. And I thought that was so beautiful because now I'm at the point where I do have three. Obviously, it I'm not put together. Like well, my most days. No, most days I'm not. But you know, the the firstborn is just a different story. I mean, I know some babies are very chilled, but that was not my experience.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Well, the firstborn.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

No, a storm. An absolute, a beautiful storm, but it's a big beautiful storm, but it's a storm. It really is. All the same. It really, I used to think it was just uh me at one point. I just think used to think, is it just me that's just got such a busy baby? Thankful for him. But I used to just think, is it just me that's going through this? That's why I just think the, you know, we talk about community and village, raising a village together. That's why I think the village is the most important thing. If you're doing this alone, you're gonna find it really hard. But if you're talking to people and speaking to friends, speaking to people, not just friends, but speaking to people that are at the exact same stage as you. So there's no point in speaking to your friend that's got a 20-year-old. And that's like, yeah, they don't remember. That's another thing as well. People don't say about mums. Once they have a child, after that year, you forget what how what it is like to have a newborn. You can't remember anything, you repress it. So let's speak to your friend with a 15-year-old, go to a playgroup and find a child, a w a woman that's got a baby, the exact same age as yours, connect with her. Very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

I thought I'd love to end on that. So thank you very much. Yeah. I did not put the words in your mouth, but no, thank you very much because I do think it's true. It's um yeah, when you you go out and uh and you see those parents um with multiple kids and you're like, hang on. Because for me, this is not making sense. It's inside outside. It's how how how does that work? Thank you also for sharing your your story, your experience. Very dear to my heart. Maybe speak to you another time.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Absolutely, I'd love to. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Thanks so much. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. Candida, thank you. Again, you came back to this space and gave us something really important. Something that I think a lot of new mothers needed to hear. Maybe even something they did not know that they needed to hear until right now. Because that is the thing about the baby blues, about the hormonal roller cost of breastfeeding, about the quiet load that can settle over you in those early weeks and months. It's so rarely talked about, and when something isn't talked about, it can start to feel like it is the only happening to you. Like you are the only one who isn't feeling pure bliss. Like there is something wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with you. What Kandida has given us today is permission. The permission to feel the full spectrum of new motherhood, the joy to the end of the exhaustion, the beauty and the end of the overwhelm. The love to the end with the loss of freedom. The permission to say I'm not okay today, even when everyone around you expects you to be. And if you are in the middle of it right now, if you recognize yourself somewhere in this conversation, please know that you are not alone. You are not failing, and it will not always be this way. Resources to support you through postnatal mood, the baby blues, and the emotional journey of breastfeeding are in the show notes. Please reach out if you need them. Candida, thank you for coming back, and thank you for being brave enough to say the things that so many women are feeling but not saying. As always, thank you for listening, thank you for being part of this village, and I'll see you in the next episode. Bye-bye. Giving me the space to keep bringing you thoughtful and honest conversations. You can find all past episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, YouTube, or wherever you usually listen. And you can follow the show there, add some new episodes, then straight up into your feed. If you'd like to get in touch, share feedback or suggest a story, you can find me on Instagram at Raising with the Village. I always love hearing from you. And if this podcast has resonated with you, one of the best ways to support it is by subscribing, rating, leaving a review, or sharing an episode with someone who might need it. It truly makes a difference and helps these stories reach the people who need them most. Thank you for being part of the village, and I'll see you next time. Bye bye, to take the top.