SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey Village! Before we dive in, if you haven't already, hit follow on your favorite podcast platform. It takes two seconds, it costs nothing, and it means the world to me. Right. Let's go! Hi, I'm Leva, and this is Radio Methodist, a podcast where real parents share real stories so we can all feel a little more connected on this wild journey of raising children. Today's episode takes me somewhere I have been looking forward to visiting for a while now. The Netherlands. You may remember that a few months ago, I sat down with Nina and we took a trip to Australia, exploring what pregnancy, birth, and early parenthood looks like on the other side of the world. The conversation sparked something in me, a curiosity about how other countries do things, what they get right, what we might be missing, and what we could dare to imagine for ourselves. Today, I'm doing it again, and this time we're going Dutch. Today, I'm talking to Susie. Susie is a Dutch mum of two, and she's going to take her through her experience of pregnancy, birth, and early motherhood in the Netherlands. And I have to say, I came to this conversation thinking I already knew a fair bit. I had heard about the Cramhole, if I said right, the personal home care system that sends a trained maternity nurse to your home in the first precious and overwhelming days after your baby arrived. I was curious. I had questions. I was ready. What I was not ready for was quite how much more there was to discover. The midwifery system, the little box that every expectant mother in the Netherlands receives as she prepares to welcome her baby, the space, the genuine structured, meaningful space given to the second parent, of course, the role of the bicycle in daily family life, and so much more that made me lean in further and further as Susie told. Now, I don't want to give away too much because Susie's story also has some unexpected twists, the kind that remind you that however careful you plan your birth, life has its own ideas, really. What I will say is that her two births looked nothing like each other. And one of them in particular is a story that you are going to want to hear for yourself. It's a feel-good episode. It is warm, it is fascinating, and it left me thinking, as Nina's episode did before, about what is possible, about what we deserve, and about how sometimes looking at the way someone else does things is the most powerful way to imagine something better. So here is Susie. Hey, how are you? Hey, good. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. I'm very good. End of the summer of the year. Um feeling very good.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

End of the summer, indeed. It's raining here. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Oh, all right. Yeah. So shall we start with some introductions and where are you?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah, good, good. Um, so I am in the Netherlands, based in the Netherlands here. Um, yes, I'm based in the Netherlands. It's raining here, so I don't know how is it how is it in the UK? Um, not raining yet. Oh, okay. Good. You're lucky the summer is definitely over, but we had a good summer, right? We had lots of uh sun and uh lots of heat waves, which I loved. Don't know about you, but uh even with kids, I love the heat waves.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, it was nice to have like sort of proper summer, although I know that obviously from a you know ecological point of view, it's really not the best. It's not meant to be this way, but it was enjoyable to have um a warm, hot um summer. So that was really nice. Definitely, definitely, definitely, yeah. What's your name? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

My name is Susanna, or as most people know me as Suzy, or as the Dutchese would call me Sus. Um so I have lots of I have lots of different names actually, thinking about it now. Saying it aloud now, it sounds like okay, that's quite a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Are you like Dr. Su?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah. Well, I guess you say it's like the shorter, sweeter version of Susanna, right? So it's in English everybody calls me Suzy, and then the Dutches say sus-u-s. Yeah, it's like a nickname. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

All right, so nice to meet you, Susie. Susanna Suzy. You too.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Well, you can call me whatever, call me Susie, maybe the English version.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Well, we'll go with that. All right, nice to meet you, Susie. And so, so you said that you're based in the Netherlands? Yeah. Can I ask you actually a very, very quick question? And feel free to completely ignore it. But what's the difference between the Netherlands and Holland? It's like when do you use one and when do you use the other?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, this is a good question, actually, because most people don't know this, right? So uh the Netherlands is like the whole country, and then you say I'm from Holland when you're from the north of Holland or the south of Holland. So within the Netherlands, you have different regions, and you have the north and south, and then you're from Holland, basically, North Holland, South Holland. Um, but um, yeah, normally you say I'm from the Netherlands, um, or I'm from Holland. Well, I actually live in the north of Holland, so I could say I'm from Holland or I'm from the Netherlands. Either way, it works for me. Uh, but the whole country is the Netherlands, and only two regions are the north. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Okay, well, I didn't know that. See, I I thought it was the same thing. I I thought it was just no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Most people think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, most people think that, or and I think internationally they say, uh, oh, you're from Holland. Um, and most people would just say, Yes, I am, but um, yeah, but it's not the whole country. So maybe they're actually not. It's a small country, so it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Okay, well good. Well, thanks for that. Um, I definitely learned something here because I did not know that. All right. So, shall we start with your story? And um I think I've heard that you've got a very lovely meat-cute story with your husband. Can we start your story there?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Well, it's a long well, we were actually saying uh this weekend um that it's 15 years ago that we met, which is crazy. But we were uh uh young, weld and free, no joking. We were uh we were both um training to become ski instructors, and we did the course in Austria in Salbach-Hinterglem, actually, to be very precise, uh, which is a really great place to ski. And as duchies, we like to go to Austria rather than France. I think the the Brits really like to go to France, also good skiing, by the way. But um, yeah, so we like to go to Austria, and that's where we met. So we did the training course together, and um yeah, and actually quite funny. Uh the whole weeks of the course and and and becoming a ski instructor. Um, we actually traveled back together in the train, uh, all the way from Austria to the Netherlands, which was an overnight train. And uh yeah, we went from there basically. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

I love it how you met ours.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, that's actually quite cool, right? That we met abroad and uh we did the whole ski season together. So after we met on the on the course, uh we decided we'll do the whole season together, and then um yeah, we went to Austria, we did the whole season together and and basically never uh parted ways again.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Oh, that is so cute. That's so cute. So, how old were you when you met?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

I was poo. Uh so I was uh in my last year of school because I wanted to do the gap year basically. Um so I was um I think when I did the course, I was still 18, but when I did the gap year, I was 19. So when we did the ski, um the whole ski season, uh I was 19. Yeah, so young, still in my teens. Wow. 19.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

So yeah, I would assume that back then at 19, you probably did not discuss having kids, or was that actually on your mind already at the time?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Well, I think I always knew that I would really like to have kids, and I think Aaron too. So I don't know, I don't think we discussed it because we're our focus was not there. We were very focused on having fun, skiing, partying, and not really focused on the serious stuff, I guess. Um, but uh yeah, we were we both come from big families. So Aaron comes from a family of four kids, and same for me, um, which is always nice and lively and fun at home. And we always, I guess we always said to each other, we want a big family together. And yeah, throughout the years we've always talked about having kids. So I don't think we did that in the first uh year of knowing each other, maybe, but definitely uh yeah, throughout the years we talked always about having kids together. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Wow, so that was yeah, so that was always the plan. And so shall we move like so we shall we jump forward to um when you actually decided, okay, let's let's let's go ahead. So how old were you at that point?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Uh when I had kids, my well, I was uh let me think, I was 30. I think I was 31. Yeah, I just turned 31 because um my boy, my first one, uh, was born in December, and I was just two months 31. Yeah, so 31 years old. So quite some years later after we met. Um, but I think that's for us that was also fun because we had lots of um traveling and lots of yeah, we lived in different countries together. Um, yeah, and so by the time I I was 30, 31, um, our first boy came around the corner. So yeah, that was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Oh, that's that's lovely. And and then you've got do you have more kids?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, I've got a little girl as well. She's five months old. So now we have a two and a half months old, yeah, and a five month old, close together. Well, I would have loved to have it even close together, I guess. But for yourself also, uh, yeah, I I think it's amazing, right? To have it's also for themselves later on in life. If I look at my brothers and sisters, how we really, yeah, we do a lot together. Like we, yeah, I wouldn't say like we're always well with my with my sister. I'm definitely really good friends, um, as well as being sisters. Um, so yeah, I think it's really important to have them close together. For me, at least, it was a big wish. Um, and I think now already you see see what you can get from it because the interaction is just so adorable. They're laughing at each other, and um the oldest one is really he loves his sister, and we didn't expect that. We thought maybe he would be a bit jealous because, well, the whole world was about him at first, and then and then she came looking around the corner. Uh, but from the moment he met her, uh, he was in love with her. So we've been super, super lucky with that. And I must say, with here and there, a little you know, incident here where he was a little bit jealous, which I think is very natural, where, for example, she was laying next to me on the bed and he wanted to sit there or little things like that. Uh, but he has been super sweet towards her, and uh, I don't think we could be luckier with that, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

No, I'm loving that. Um, shall we go back to your pregnancy story then? Can you um walk me through what your pregnancy care looked like in in the Netherlands? So so so let's go to the very, very start of the pregnancy. When you find out that you're pregnant, take me from there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Um yeah, so it was a bit of a surprise for us. Um, well, not surprise, of course, we really wanted to have kids. Um, but uh as soon as I realized that I was pregnant, um I like I told my parents straight away, and that was really exciting. And so normally I guess people really keep it to themselves nowadays, but um, yeah, within my family we're very close, so I was like yeah, dropping the bomb at home straight away. I was like, this is happening, and then within those first weeks that you know in the Netherlands, you um you call the midwife, as you as you call it here, I know yeah, um verloskundige, midwife, and um yeah, they're separately from the hospital here, so they have their own clinics in the Netherlands. Um, so you reach out to them, uh it's quite a normal procedure, and then they uh get in contact with you about uh um an intake, as they call it, uh a check-in conversation just over the call, and then you have your first scan at week uh eight, I believe, already. Um because they check if everything is actually because you can feel pregnant at first, and the first weeks are always a bit fragile. Um, and then you have your check-in already at week six with them on the call, and week eight they do the first scan. So in the Netherlands, it's all done by um yeah, external factors from hospital. So it's they are midwives, but they're totally um yes, separate from the hospital.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Okay, so they're physically separate from the hospital. It's a different building, or at least it was a good idea. Uh-huh. And uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah, I would see it more as like how you go in the UK, you go to the GP, separate from uh if when you go to hospital maybe for an operation, and here you have in the Netherlands you have a GP, but also separately you have um midwife, mid midwiferies, I think that's the word in the UK, and they have their own uh companies basically. So they set up their own buildings like a GP and um yeah, so it's it's it's totally separate from hospitals.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Okay, okay. And is that if you know, is that always the case, or is that just with um say quote unquote simple pregnancies, like say you're pregnant with twins, or you are maybe younger or a little bit older in your pregnancy, will you always be directed towards the the midwifery, or would you be going to the hospital or you know, some other uh medical professionals?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

So I because my cases I've always had the in quote unquote standard uh pregnancies, I've always gone through them. Uh but I I guess if uh well when you are with twins, uh then it's more classed as a medical pregnancy, more straight straight away. So I guess then you also have check-ins in the hospital. Uh but even and I think also because I haven't had twins, my mom had twins, by the way. My brothers are twins, just FYI. Uh but um, yeah, straight away I think then they go over to hospital because then it's more the risk is bigger, right? Um but uh in general, if there is if they don't see any risk, um then yeah, you wouldn't be transferred to hospital uh or have the check-ins there. Um yeah, because they really want to keep that separate. Okay. And I guess also it is maybe to well, I don't know the the um if it is, but my theory might be that there's a little bit of also the restraint from the hospital. There's a lot going on, right? So if if it can be, it is a totally different um yeah, um career, I guess uh uh you would say, um, then yeah, it can be totally separate from the hospital. It doesn't have to be it also takes a lot of pressure away from all the hosp yeah, the things going on there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Oh, okay. So actually on that point, could you describe to me what um the midwifery looks like a little bit? Is it because you said that it's very different from the hospital, so what does it look like? Is that less, I would assume, less medication?

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Oh, I see what you mean. Well, yeah, they just have their own. So in my case, uh I signed up with the midwifery that is in my village. Uh they have a couple, so you just choose whichever one you feel more comfortable with, and then you have your intake, and then you go for your first scan, and they have everything there basically. So they do the checkups there, um, they just have uh waiting room like you have at your GP, but I think it's all a bit more friendly, I would say, than maybe a GP. Sometimes when you go to your GP, it's a bit um, you know, it's like a yeah. I guess with the midwifery, it's very friendly. They have a little play corner for the kids. It's quite normal for moms uh when they have their checkups to bring the older kids if need be, um, so that you don't have restraints with uh babysitting and stuff. And yeah, they did all the checkups constantly there. So every so many weeks you have checkups, and then they check um how's your uh blood going, how's your heart, and all of those things, and they check if the baby's okay, they listen to the heart of the baby, they check with you if you're mentally okay. That's also quite interesting. Um, because one of my best friends, she's a midwife, and um, yeah, she also says sometimes they have more difficult conversations um with their with the people coming around, right? Um sometimes uh people are yeah, the pregnancy isn't that easy for everybody, yeah. All the all the things that come looking around the corner when you're pregnant. Um, so yeah, sometimes it's also a way to just um have a little bit of a conversation. Um yeah, so they block an amount of time for you, but sometimes it goes a little bit over time. Um, I remember also having to wait for my turn uh when I had an appointment for half an hour because they run over with the person before, and maybe something went on there, you don't know what happened, right? So they really the my point is they really take the time to make it a personal experience. Um, yeah. So I think that's a very it's a very nice um way of going through your pregnancy.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

It's such such a lovely approach because it is a very special time of life and everything is very different. I mean, yeah, to your point, your body is completely different, and the way you may react to it as well um would be completely different to any other experiences you've had before. So I really love this approach. I I really like it.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it's really nice, and yeah, so they really take the time for you and also they um guide you through because of course with my first pregnancy, you can you can read so much online, but actually somebody that is experienced to speak to them, so they also advise you about, for example, in Madeline, you get like um um uh vaccine. Or is it vaccine? Yep. At twenty at twenty weeks, you get um uh the word in English. I think you're getting it on a certain immunization. Yeah, yeah, for a certain part of the pregnancy it's it's important to get that, but they really walk you through it and why it's important. And of course it's still your own decision to get these things. Um but yeah, they and they do it over there as well, right? So it's not that you have to then go to hospital all the time. They take if, for example, there's something with your blood, they can take your blood there. Um, and I think that's really nice that you don't have to go to hospital all the time.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

That's really good. And so, in terms of um the people that you meet with, are they the same people that you would ideally give birth with, or would that be a different team and would that be the same place as well?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

No, same people. So they have uh in my case, it's like a team of four or five ladies in in this case, could also be men, right? But most of the time with their ladies. Um and yeah, they they have the um the talks or the like the when you have your check-ins, but also they do the shifts. So I don't know how exactly they do that with their work-wise, but they do shifts where you also see them on checkups at in your house, um, and uh after giving birth, or whilst you're giving birth, as we might go into a little bit later, but in the Netherlands, a lot of people give birth at home, uh, so they are there as well to guide you through that, and um, they are um the ones taking care of you through that process.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Okay. Okay, so it's very much a case of you've got many weeks, months, even to develop a relationship with a fairly restricted team, so so that when it comes to it and you're giving birth, you should be very familiar with um the person assisting you through um your birth giving process.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, they make sure of that as well, right? So when you have your checkups, and I think we have more checkups. Um actually I know for sure because um one of my English friends, she's also pregnant at the moment, and she had her first scan at 20 weeks and in the Netherlands or Or at you know, like a check-in scan, and in Melance you've had three scans by then and uh she was saying that she'd really like another scan but that you have to pay for it. So it's all covered, right? So I think in Lens this is all covered by the government and uh they really make sure that throughout your checkups with the with the mid with the midwives that you see everybody in the team. So I've met everybody in the team twice at least before giving birth. So by the time I gave birth I knew who even though it might have been uh one lady on shift, I know I've met her already, right? So yeah. Because they can't decide who's on shift that night, it just goes with the rotor. Uh so it's really important that you that you meet them beforehand.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Yeah, yeah. And how many scans did you have overall? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, I'm thinking about it now, but uh eight-week scan, twelve weeks. You can do an additional one at 16 weeks because then you'd like most people like to know the gender. And then in the Netherlands, I don't know if this is the same in the UK, but then you have a very extensive scan at 20 weeks. Oh, sorry, going back, you have also at 13 weeks. So 13 weeks, yeah, 13 weeks, and then the one 16 weeks is like a special scan if you want to know the gender, and then at 20 weeks, uh those ones are very extensive, like they take 45 minutes because they check everything, right? And that is also by choice. You could also decide you don't want that, of course. Um because of course sometimes in those scans they discover things, um, but not everybody um wants to discover that, right? So um, but most I think I don't know the percentage, we could look it up potentially, but I don't know anybody that hasn't done those scans in the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

So yeah, and do you have a standard thing? Do you have any more scans after 20 weeks?

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yes, but it's more um because after 20 weeks you just keep growing, right? So they check your heart and all of that, and then sometimes when you go to the the midwife or the midwifery, they say, Do you want to have another quick peek at your baby? And then if they have the time, they show you. But after a while, the baby's so big you can't really do the scans anymore because you can't see them very well. So you could do a specific 3D scan, but that's something that you have to pay for. So um that's really cool, right? You can really see the face of the baby and all of it, but um, that's something that outside of uh the standard bundle, I would say. Um, but yeah. So overall, I think there's a lot of scanning and a lot of listening to the heart and stuff, but at a certain stage you're too big to scan. Um, you can't really see them anymore. You can see maybe hand or foot, but there's not much that it's just too crowded in there.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Yeah, yeah, at some point it it does get too crowded. Oh already, I think when you get to 20 wings, it's quite difficult already. It's really in the early days that you can kind of see the baby like on one screen, if that makes sense. And then after that, it's more like, oh, there's a shoulder, there's a foot, there's a exactly.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

And then hoping that they're in the right position, right? That you see anything at all, because sometimes they hide as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Yeah, yeah. It's like come back or wiggle.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, so I think overall I must say the whole process is quite extensive in the Netherlands. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah, it sounds like it. And so um you mentioned that uh some people, and actually it's quite frequent that people give birth at home. Do you know if there is a different well, not trajectory, maybe that's the wrong word, but is there sort of a different path um at some point, maybe past 20 weeks, if you decide to give birth at home, do you start to have maybe visits at home instead of going to the midwifery? Or is that fairly similar and then it's just at the end you give birth at home instead of going to the midwifery?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Well, I think well the well, the funny thing is, so I work for quite an international company, and when I was a pregnant of uh my first one uh at work, uh somebody asked me, um, oh, so when are you due to have your c-section? I said, C-section. I said, C-section. Um, and I guess also different cultures, right? So different, I said, uh, you don't have you can't just plan your c-section in the Netherlands. You just either you give birth naturally, or if anything uh happens, or because of medical reasons, they've already decided that you need to have a c-section, then you get booked in. But it's not like in the Netherlands that you say, I'm not, I don't want to have I want to have a C-section that you just get booked in. So I don't know how that is in the UK, but in the Netherlands it's quite standard that you um yeah, that you don't have a planned in C-section. Um, but I know I also looked at stats that, for example, in the States it's very high C-section. It's above uh 60, oh, I have to say it right when I read it last time, uh 56%, which is very high, uh, apparently. Um, and in the Netherlands it's it's much, much lower. So I think it's around more than 20% uh-ish. Uh but don't get me on the on the stats, maybe take that one out. But um, yeah, so the point is is that um yeah, uh in the Netherlands it's most yeah, most people expect that you want to give birth at home. Uh, but if you really want to go to hospital or a birthing home, which we also have, um, that's also a possibility. Um, so it it depends what you really want. But they start talking about your uh plan of birth uh around, I would say, um, 20 weeks or before. If you want to talk, if you want to talk about it before, they're very open for it, but it's more that before you know life is happening and the baby is growing fine, and and then in the last uh trimester uh or the mid-trimester, second and last is good to think about it. Um, and they ask you to write a birthing plan, but everybody always makes a joke. Um, even if you write your birthing plan, it doesn't mean that it will happen that way, which is definitely true, but it's good to write it down, uh, also to go through the process together with your partner, right? Because yeah, you have to really also tell your partner what do you want, what do you not want, and uh also to let them know whilst you're giving birth that they know what your requirements are, right? So um I think that's very important. And then it is yeah, quite a normal thing in the Netherlands to give birth at home, but you're hearing it more and more where uh ladies do want to give birth in a hospital or close to the hospital, so then you have um birthing homes, uh, which most of the time are connected to the hospital. So there's they're separate buildings, but they're connected to the hospital. So if in need, then they can um yeah, they can take you through if uh if required, any emergencies.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

So yeah. So you mentioned um having the conversation with your partner. What's the what's the place for the partners throughout the pregnancy? Because you've said that obviously it's a very welcoming space, um the midwifery. You've talked about uh the fact that women can come with their elder children as well, which I'm absolutely loving. Um but what about the partners? How involved are they during the process, or at least in your experience?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, well, I think in my experience, I'm also lucky with the partner I have, right? Because he's very involved in general. Um, so he wanted to join most of the appointments. I think with with our firstborn, he was at every appointment with me, um, which I really loved. Um, and I think it's also nice for him to experience. And then with the second one, he was at most of the appointments with me, but also some he couldn't make it because of work. Uh, also fine. But that uh more towards the second and last trimester, he joined for everything again, and always he was there with the scans, of course. Um, so yeah, I think it also depends on your partner and how involved um he or she uh wants to be, right? Um, but in in my case, um my partner really wants to be very involved, and um yeah, he's very welcomed at every conversation, very involved, and also they ask him questions, which is really nice. Um yeah, they also go through the medical history. Um, most of the time it's very focused on the female medical history and going back to my family, but sometimes there's also diseases and stuff that you have to discuss uh from the partner's side. Um, so it's nice for him to also be there and and go through the process. And I think the more involved your partner can be, the better uh yeah, preparation, I would also say, because he was also able to ask questions about birth and all of that. And actually, for our first one, we actually did uh a birthing course. Uh we didn't do for the second, we we kind of uh we knew how what was coming. Uh but I think also quite good to do that, uh because you go quite blank into it, and they yeah, they do lots of courses at the midway free, um, most of the time in the evenings, and then uh they do like a breastfeeding course and a birthing course, and it's yeah, it's very much also involve your partner. So yeah, we join we did that together for the first one, which was really good.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yeah, and so how was your first birth? Did it go according to plans?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

According to my plan, I wrote. No, not really. But for the first one, I wanted to give birth in a hospital, uh, or um at least um yeah, close to a hospital, so um um the birthing homes. Um but uh what happened in my case may be a bit extraordinary to what is standardly happens, uh, but I um I was we drove to hospital after uh X amount of time. Um that I was uh the so basically what happened is the midwife came to our house when it's all started to rumble. Um, and then they do checkups at the beginning, and then at a certain stage they say, okay, I think uh now we're ready to go to hospital if that's what you want, right? And because I already um said I want to go to hospital, um they said, Okay, I think at this stage we go together. So um Aaron drove, meet hospital, and then the midwife drives after you. She basically they joined for the whole birth, right? So they're there even if it's in hospital, or if it becomes medical, they can do the handover, basically. But we drove to the hospital, but um, in my case, it was very busy. I guess a lot of babies were being born around December. Um, so we had to we couldn't go to the hospital near our house, we had to drive for half an hour. Um, and uh I was in a birthing home there. Um, but then um, because it's the first one, it just took a little longer, all of it. And in the end, um I uh became medical because um my son uh pooped in uh in my tummy. Uh I guess he uh but they didn't know if he pooped. So so my waters broke basically in the in the birthing home. Uh or and they didn't know if he pooped a long time ago or at that stage. So then that's when I became medical. Because then they're thinking, okay, the baby's heart is fine, but is he in need? Is he finding it uh, is he suffering in there? So that's when I became medical. Um, but that wasn't the best experience for me because the even though my birthing home was connected to the hospital, they didn't have space for me in hospital. So then I was transferred uh via an ambulance to another hospital. Um, and that's where I gave birth in it in another hospital. So that the the actually the whole birth was really good, except from the part where I had to be transferred via uh ambulance from one hospital to the other. And I think if that wouldn't have happened, um it would have been an absolutely fine first first uh birthing experience. Uh but being transported um whilst you're ready to um push, I would say, uh isn't uh the best experience. Um but yeah, and then in the other hospital I was really supported. Uh the midwife was still there, the the lady who was guiding me through the whole process, and then um she handed it over to two uh hospital midwives, as I would call them, uh specialized for the hospital uh department, and um yeah, and then our little son was born that day. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

So quite the adventure, so smooth in your experience, but still quite the adventure because it started home and then you run to the first hospital, and then you got transferred into the second hospital, and then there was a bit of a stressful moment, and uh oh uh tinted water, or whatever they call it, and uh okay, and the baby came out, but you still you still had a a good experience with your birthing experience, it was still a an experience that you enjoyed.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

No, I would say the second one I was much better with my daughter, but the for the first one, even though we did the course and all of it, I think the fact that I had to be moved uh really shook me up. Because at that stage you're ready to go, right? You're ready to give birth, and then uh the ambulance came and they said, Oh, she's the the there was a bit of a panic because I was very far along and they didn't want to take me to the other hospital, the ambulance um um personas, I don't know what you would call them, um, but they didn't want to bring me to the other hospital because they were scared that I would give birth on the motorway. So it was a bit of a I heard the and the thing is when you're giving birth, every you're in a trance, but you can hear everything that's happening. So um I was listening to them in the hallway discussing, okay, uh we will take her only if you so the only reason why they took me to the other hospital and they agreed on taking me in the end is that the midwife came with me in the ambulance. So um, so yeah, that was pretty amazing that she did that. And then my husband had to drive with the car behind us. Um so yeah, also quite the experience for him. Um, which of course is way bigger for the female, but also for the male or the partner in this case, uh to to yeah, to see your uh partner suffer or yeah, to go through that uh quite stressful as well, I would say. Um and then in the ambulance they were saying, yeah, we're going to ex-hospital. And I said, No, my husband, he's going to this hospital. And they they said they said the wrong hospital. Oh no. So they went to the right hospital where he was going, but they they said the wrong hospital out. And I was like, No, no, no, guys, we're going to this hospital, right? And they were like, Yes, we're going to this hospital. Apologies. Yeah. Again, it was some of one of us was still uh, you know, focusing on where we were going. That was me. No, no, no. It was all good. But I if you're saying was it a good experience? Um it was an experience.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

It was a good experience.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, I don't wish it upon anybody to be moved. You know what I mean? I think it's if you're in a certain trance, it's good to be in your trance and stay stay in the focus and not to be moved and completely taken out of that focus. Because yeah, it is a part, yeah, you're just in a in a stage where you just need to focus on what you're doing there and not people taking you from one place to the other. Yeah, I don't wish that up on anybody.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Definitely, you're in your bubble, and the last thing you want is especially if you were just ready to push and they're like, Yeah, sorry, can you pose that please? We'll get you moved to a different hospital. And by the way, it's this hospital. Oh sorry, women, this hospital.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Yeah, literally, I was told uh hold it, please. So yeah. So I don't wish that upon anybody, but I guess it was definitely an experience. And um, yeah, and then afterwards, what is really good in the Netherlands is that they I'm sure it's also in the UK, but uh that they really take care of you afterwards and really take you through the whole process and talk to you about it. And the midwives they come to your house for several checkups in the first two weeks. Um, and the first uh six weeks you are in contact with them about your progress and the baby's progress. So um, and then after that, if there's anything, then you go over to your GP or whatever. But um, yeah, they're very involved at the beginning, so they come to your house and and all of that. So it was also good because the lady that was uh there uh throughout my birth from one to the other hostel from home, um, she also came afterwards and we talked about the whole experience, and she also said to me that it was quite the experience for her and that it was a very abnormal situation. Um which is of course never what you want to hear, uh, but that is that is what happened. Um so yeah, so it was the experience, I must say it was quite the story. Which I I heard afterwards that they also use that story uh internally for training because it's just not good to be moved from one place to the other.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

No, no, really not. Um, and um you're probably thinking, Great, now I'm the statistic.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Uh yeah, exactly. What shouldn't be happening, but then with my second birth, I I I guess uh it was like an ideal picture.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

So how was your second birth then?

SPEAKER_00 39:46

So that like it's more i idealistic, I guess, um, especially for Dutch terms, because I gave birth at home. Um which wasn't it wasn't the plan because I I thought okay, um I want to go to hospital again because that's where I feel comfortable and everything is you know around the corner, and if anything happens, then I'm in hospital. Um, but yeah, uh because um most of the time things start rumbling when you relax, so that's in the evenings, right? So um yeah, so the it started to rumble around dinner time, and my son he wanted to sit on my uh lap during dinner, and I was like, Oh, maybe that's not the best idea. I'm a little bit uncomfortable, I said to my partner, and then he's afterwards the next day he said, You said you were uncomfortable, but you couldn't be more clear that you were very uncomfortable. But I guess, yeah, I don't know. I was just thinking, okay, now it's definitely started, it's a bit uncomfortable. So, and then we had dinner because I thought, okay, I better have a good dinner so that I have energy, you know. And then um, yeah, I still went to bed around 10-ish and I slept for a couple of hours, I think maybe two, three hours, and then when I woke up, it definitely started, and um, and yeah, it started quite quickly, and then you know, the whole process of you know it moving quite rapidly, and then I said to my partner, maybe we should call the midwives, because that's what you do, and you have to call the midwives in our case if it's um contractions. Oh yeah, contractions, yeah. Yeah, yeah. If they um stay for 60 seconds and come every every um after every 30 seconds, yeah, something like that. But if it but for in my case, they they stayed very short, but they came very rapidly. So I thought, okay, well, we have to wait because you know, I'm not they're not very long yet, but they were very intense very rapidly. So after a while, I said, and this was like after 20 minutes, I said to my partner, I think we should call her because uh even though they're not staying that long, they're very intense. So he called and he was casually saying, you know, it's very early days, maybe just so you know it's happening now, and then then they wanted to know more about my situation because I think they're very trained, right? So they said they said, Okay, ask her this question, ask her that question. And then he said, Okay, we're gonna grab our stuff and we're gonna come your way. So they came my way, and then I think maybe 30 minutes later they were there, 30 to 45 minutes later. Um, because it's fine in in this case, and then and it was also the middle of the night. Um, and yeah, the midwife came and she also had uh a lady in training, and also by the way, they check if they're allowed to bring uh somebody who's in training, um, which in my case I said, yeah, that's fine. And then uh they came and they checked up on me and they said, We're not going to hospital. Uh, if we go to hospital, you'll give birth in a car. So we were all a bit shocked, uh, because I thought, oh, we're gonna have another one of those very long days, right? Um, and um, yeah, three hours later. So from start, from the time that my partner called the midwife, um, or maybe yeah, in total, uh, three uh hours later she was there. So pretty crazy, pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Wow. So this story very different. No, yeah, very different at this time. No, no, you didn't even have the time to leave the house.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

No. And and I was a bit in shock uh that they said don't leave. And in my birth plan, it said go to hospital. So my partner kept on asking the midwife, um, so when are we going to hospital? I put the bag in the car, so when are we going to hospital? So he asked her three times, and then the third time she was very clear to him. She said, Do you want her to give birth in the car? No, then we're staying here. Okay. So that was, and I heard that all in the background, right? Unload the car, unload the car. Yeah, he literally had to unload the car, get all the stuff back out because in because A lot of people give birth in the Netherlands at home. Uh, you have to get like a birthing pack, it gets delivered to your house. It's like a box with all of the stuff for the midwives, um, like the um I don't know, lots of stuff in there to give birth at home, and everybody gets it delivered at home, it's for free, the government covers it, and um yeah, so and then they said, Yo, where is this box? And I said, I have no idea. I put it somewhere in the loft. I was not planning on giving birth at home, so Erin was looking for the box.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Everyone gets it. Ah, so sorry, because I thought that it was everyone who said they wanted to give birth at home were going to receive the box. Everybody gets the box, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah, yeah, because of cases like myself, I guess, where you say you want to go to hospital, but then in the end you give birth at home. Do you want? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Is it the pack where the box it comes in, becomes like a little cradle for the baby?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Uh that's also so I've seen that online as well. No, this one that is really cool, right? I love that. But they do that as well here, but that's more for when you know when you need that extra support when you have for something if you can't uh potentially afford a cradle or anything like that. But here, this is the standard box. Everything is in there, but you can't change it to um a cradle. No, no, that would be cool. That would be cool. But there's a lot in there, yeah. There's a lot in there. Uh everything for the baby. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

So I like how it's like kind of always be prepared. It's like we'll we'll just send it to every woman that is pregnant just in case they can't leave the house and you know, same thing as you. Everything happens a lot quicker than expected, and you give birth at home. The midwives they come to your house and everything's ready. They don't they don't need to sort of necessarily think about what to bring, what to pack, or whatever, because they know that you will already have received the box with um the stuff that they will need.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

100%. Yeah, yeah. And I I yeah, I think they do it also on purpose because a lot of people in the Netherlands they give birth at home. Um, but yeah, I think in my case it was ideal that they do this and think about these things because I was the stubborn person that said, No, I want to go to hospital, and then three hours later the baby's crying. So there's a there's a reason why they do it, and it's a it's a really good reason. But it's also so interesting because when they said to my husband, um, she's not going anywhere, she's gonna give birth, like literally, I think an hour and a half later the baby was there, right? So and they made the I was in my bedroom and they made well, er, my partner keeps on saying, like, or my husband keeps on saying, they sterilized the room. It became like a medical room, and the the joke is everything in our room is quite beige, except from the walls with like a really nice uh color wall, but like the bed is beige, the floor is beige, the the covers are white. Um so we were a bit like uh-oh, this is not what we planned, and then they sterilized the whole room, it became like a lot little hospital room almost, and then by the time the baby was born, everything was gone, all the stuff was gone, and it was the room again. So, you know, three and a half hours later, yeah, is yeah, your baby is there, you're holding your baby. I was already breastfeeding her, and I was at home, so it was very nice, yeah. Yeah, best best birth, I would say. I wish that that birth upon everyone.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Yeah, this one. And sorry, my practical mind is going back to your first birth. So, your first birth, you obviously gave birth in a hospital. What happened to that box? Did you do you send the box back, or what happens if you don't use the box? You just keep it.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah, you keep it, and there's also stuff in there which is quite handy in the first week. So, like there's stuff for myself, right? Like there's stuff for the female in there as well after giving birth, like the the most powerful nappies, yeah, ads, all of that. And um, there's stuff for the baby in there. Um, so yeah, there you use it, but maybe not the full box.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Okay, ah, so that that's really good. So it's sort of like birth and um I was gonna say the aftermath. It sounds a little bit cream. Yeah, uh but uh exactly immediate time after. So all those, yeah, lovely nappy panties um that a few of us might have experienced. Um that's really well, you know, prepared.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah, yeah, all of that is in there. I mean, it's not four weeks on end, right? But the start of for the first week, I would say stuff is in there. Um when you existed. Yeah, so we used yeah, so for the first one we used half of the box, and then yeah, the other stuff, maybe like there's some um bandages and stuff like that. You just put it in the in the drawer. Uh but maybe they should ask for it back, but I don't think they can, because you know it's already half sterile, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So so yeah. So I guess uh it's not yeah. No, maybe some of them are are go-to-ways, but yeah, it's a it's a really good initiative and everybody gets it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

Yeah, it's brilliant. I think it's fantastic, especially because it's not just if you give birth at home, it can still be very useful um for the first week, the week where famously you're absolutely exhausted um because a baby just came out of you.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Um nine months of carrying the baby, and then boom. Yeah, yeah. So it's uh yeah, it's uh it's really good. And then as you well, I I think you already know we in the Netherlands you have um, as you call it, Cram Hope. So that um that's a lady who also came during my home birth. So there were a lot quite a lot of people in my house, uh second time round. So maybe to explain it a little bit. So I had, of course, uh my partner there, and then you have the midwife, and then she brought somebody who was in training, but I must say she was almost done with training, so she was very good, and I was very happy that she was there.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

And then uh you also have um the cram hoop, um, and I don't know if there is a word for it in in English or international because it's I think we say cram hoop, although I would have said cramzorg because I've got no idea about how to pronounce it. Um but I think I think we use the Dutch word for that because I don't think anyone else has this role.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

I no, yeah, but the thing is they already come during birth, which is amazing, unless you're in hospital, then they come after as soon as you're home. Um, but in this case she was there already. So by the time I gave birth, the crown help was there, and so she was the crown help on the night shift, and then they get a call from uh the midwife. Um, Susie's giving birth, um, are you on your way? And and then she comes over, and then uh she helps a lot with the um with the midwife, so it's like they really they know what they work in a team, like I heard them talk to each other and uh all of that during my birth, and um yeah, how they sterilized the room. It was definitely team effort, and um then as soon as I gave birth, she helped me um make sure that I could breastfeed straight away, and then she cleaned my bed, um, and then she helped me wash, which was amazing. I couldn't really go in the shower straight away because I lost a lot of blood, but she helped me wash, which was amazing, and then um yeah, she makes sure that I get my first meal, um, and then she leaves after X amount of hours to hand over to the next person because she did the nice shift. Um, they write like some handover, and then you get uh cam help uh for the first 14 days or something crazy. Uh but yeah, a lot. No, 14 days might be too much. Wait, how many days? At least the first 10 days or something you get uh support. Um, I have to say it correctly. I have to look it up. But a lot of days after giving birth, they come in the morning and they leave later in the afternoon, and then they help you throughout the days uh with everything that the mom needs. So I didn't leave my bed in my with the with my firstborn. She came straight after giving birth in the hospital. We stayed the night in the hospital, and then the next morning we arrived home, and she was already there, like in the within a couple of like an hour or so, and then she takes care of the mother, helps with food, and in this case we also had a toddler, so she also engaged with the toddler. Um, so yeah, it's it's a really amazing concept. It's it's really so good.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

And do you know if um your own mom also benefited from a crime home?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Yes, yes, she did. We talked about it because the it's a really amazing concept, and it's really good that they come over, but it's but the the reason why we talked about it is because of course there are lots of different people doing this uh for a living. So sometimes you get really good Calm Help, like amazing support, and now I've experienced it with two kids, right? And sometimes, even though it's such a privilege to get Calm Help, and I know it's not in every other country, um, you see the difference in in the people that you get, right? So we talked about that. Um, but yeah, she definitely did, and because also she gave birth to twins, um, I think it was definitely very needed. Yeah. Yeah. So it's an amazing, amazing concept. But they're the the concept around it is that they're there for the mum. So I know they do a lot within the household, like I was saying, like they do they even do the washing and stuff, which is amazing. They clean your bed every day. Every day you get a clean bed. And these are all things that they um it's important because apparently they told me in the first days you sweat quite a lot after giving birth. It's important that you're in a clean bed, and otherwise it would be totally on your own network, right? Your mom or maybe your s your mother-in-law or your own partner. So to take that load of your partner and that's quite it's really nice. So so yeah, it's a really good concept.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

Yeah, that's really fantastic. I mean, thank you so much for sharing um this part of the experience specifically because uh that's really something I personally was very interested in hearing more about because apart from the Netherlands, um, I had never I've never heard of that concept uh in any other places. Uh or at least something you know that is um you know, at the scale of the country. I'm sure maybe you can have that um if you it's something that you do privately. Um but something to be organized um by the government, but your you know health um health department uh at national level, I find that so just so impressive.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I just uh because I wanted to get my facts straight, so you get it eight to ten days after giving birth. Eight to ten days.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

And it depends, yeah, it depends on how your birth was, of course, and if you want it, right? Some people really so of course in the lands as well, you have a lot of people that um depending on the culture, they really get help by a village, right? They're extended family, they don't maybe not want the cam help for all of the time that they are allowed to have. Uh, but it a cramble has to come. It's not that you can say no. So it's also interesting in that regard, I would say, because um they also do kind of like a little bit of a check-in on the baby. Is the baby okay? Is the mom okay? What's the home situation? So it's not only really to support, but it's also really to to engage with the families. Is the baby in a good situation? And in the first days, it's of course also some babies then uh we call it gillzucht, they can turn a little bit yellow. So they they do checkups on the wings and they yeah, yeah, and they also do checkups on the mom. Um because of course you gave birth or maybe had a C-section, they check the wound. Um, they're all specialized in that. So I think the whole concept is really to make sure and yeah, that the baby and the mother are in a good position. Uh and the first eight to ten days, depending on how your birth was and how much you want it, of course, um, they stay for the full days.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Yeah. Yeah, that's really fantastic, especially because you've mentioned earlier that um after that, um, I guess in the early days it's on top of that, but then after that you still have your connection with your midwife for another you said the first six weeks.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Yeah, but also even though the Crown Hope comes to your house uh for those first days, the midwife also comes to your house. So they come to your house after giving birth the first day, then two days later, then six days later. So there's a lot of um interaction and checkups, and how are you doing? And so yeah, so it's not only um that you are in contact with them, and then after six weeks, you can go and have a chat with the Cam Hope then uh sorry, with the midwife, and you can go to their place again and maybe have an after chat. I I never did that because I didn't feel like I had to. I felt like I shared my story to so many people in my circle that I was kind of done talking about it, especially with the first with the first birth. Um that yeah, I didn't go for that after check or whatever chat that you might want to have. Uh, but they're very um yeah, open for that. And they also ask for feedback, you get like these surveys, and what can they improve? So I think the whole circle of engaging with mom uh or mother to be and then like the checkups and and guiding them through the process and also guiding them through breastfeeding, because I don't think I could have ever given like the breastfeeding is quite a big thing as well, so they really guide you through that. Um, as and also the second time around, I thought, oh easy, I did it the first time, but it wasn't the same, it's totally different, baby, different, yeah, different way of feeding. So I definitely had to have that help at the beginning, and they really guided me through how I could um support her in this case. Um, because with the first one it was a boy, he was just latching on, ready to eat. And then with the second one it was a girl, she was very petite, and yeah, it was all very different process. So they really supported me in that, and I'm still breastfeeding fully till this day, and I must say thanks to their help at the beginning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

That's so fantastic because I definitely know that it can be such a challenge. Um, you know, if you want to breastfeed but you don't have the support, uh you can feel so um, you know, at a loss, so lonely uh in your experience.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

So that's really fantastic. Yeah, and of course you can go on a course and stuff for it, which is I think also covered by the government. But in this case, uh I think the government also thinks in the Netherlands, if we give this support at home, then you know it doesn't have to cost us a lot of extra things that maybe medical um that um that the mother might need, right? If you help at the beginning. So I think it's a very um yeah thought out process as well.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Yeah, it's very supporting. And speaking of being, you know, of the government thinking about how to best support new mums, I was thinking about in in your case, your husband's journey as well through it after the birth. What you know, what about um his time of work? Does he does he get any? And how long does it get? Because I think that in the Netherlands it's actually quite generous for the second parent.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Good. Yeah, it's really good. Um although I always uh think that Sweden is the best example of how it should be done. Uh, but in the Netherlands they're they are improving. Um so basically, my partner he he took uh four weeks of, so a full month of uh during our first birth, uh like that's when our son was born, which was amazing because even though I had the midwife, I had my family support and all that, your partner is your closest ally, right? Like this is or yeah, your closest person that you want to share this with. So it was amazing to have him there constantly and and go through that first phase together. And then um then he returned to work, but he he still had um six weeks that he could take. Uh, and he you can take that throughout the first year of uh my son's birth, and that's 70% paid, so it's not 100% paid, not 100% cover, but still 70% is pretty good. So in total, uh a partner gets nine weeks that they can start using from the day of birth um until until the first year, and they can decide whenever they want to take it. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

That's absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Yeah, it's really really good. And um yeah, I think the government is trying more and more to really make sure that the partner really gets involved in this. So by extending it to nine weeks, I think before it was five, which was already really good, and now it's nine weeks. Um, but the first five weeks you have to take in the first six months of the of the child's birth, and then uh the other uh four weeks you can take throughout the first year. Okay. And it it doesn't stop there, but then it's unpaid. So in the first eight years of your baby or your child in this case, it's not a baby at that time, you can take um so many weeks off a year. I don't know the exact amount, but then it would be unpaid.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

The thing is why they do that here is that you can just say, I need to take parental day off. So it, you know, sometimes you have emergencies or things going on and it's not a holiday day, but it's something to do with your child, or you want to have every week a Friday off because you want to be with your child, you are entitled to that, but the company doesn't have to pay or the government doesn't pay 70% over that. Okay. And that's in the first eight years of um a child's life. That's also amazing. Really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

How old are kids when they um start school in the Netherlands? Four, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Okay, so they're four, yeah. And then um by the age that they're five, they ha have to go to school, right? They it's uh by law. So four is when everybody starts, but you can still take them off school and take them ahead to make sure that they um maybe still go on holiday outside of um school holidays and stuff, but by the age of five, you're not allowed to do that anymore. So then they have to go to school.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very very similar to the UK um with that. No, but I was wondering because I was thinking, is that covering sort of the time before the child starts school? But no, it's fantastic because it covers even when the time has started when the child has started school, uh, all the way up to when they turn eight. So that that's really fantastic. Such great support from um from the government with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Yeah, and I must say also here in the Netherlands, because of course we lived for seven years in the UK, so we also have still very good English friends, and we see the difference, right, from the parenting, how it works. But it's also very much normalized for a father figure to take uh one day off a week to be with the children. So um yeah, they call it here papa duch. Um, but um it always makes me laugh because there's not really a mama duch, but there is a papa duck, but um but then the the the thing is that it's quite normal to uh I know a lot of dads in my circle of friends in the Netherlands that work four days, um, and that's very normalized, especially in the school years, the lower school years, and then of course people tend to go back, or maybe when the kids are a bit older, they tend to go back to full time, but it's very normalized for both mother and father to work four days.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:22

That is so interesting, that's so fantastic because you're absolutely right. I would say that in my circle I know many mothers that will um work four days so that they can have one day with um their kid even after they've started school, so that they can, you know, yeah, make sure that they can uh do the drop-off, the pickups, the you know, the sort of the the care, you know, a bit of extra time because there's still very little. But I can't say the same thing about dads.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Yeah, yeah. No, and I I definitely know the difference as well because of course we lived so many years in the UK. I never saw that around me. And I know also from a lot of my English friends, females as well, they go back full-time. It's not really normalized. Um yeah, more normalized for females to work part-time. Um, but it's quite normal also to go back full-time in the UK, I would say. And here it's very normal to go back, and that's why you have those parental days, even though they're non-paid, you are entitled to use them. So it also is kind of the the government saying, you know, your parents, so you can use those, and your company has to allow you to use those days. Um, and you have a lot of parents also have where I work where both the female and male um they take one day off a week to be with the kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Uh such a fantastic um setup. And what about the maternity leave? How long is your maternity leave?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Yeah, so that I think could be longer. But um, so in a lunch you have to stop working four weeks before giving birth. So of course you get a due date from the midwife, and then four to six weeks before uh you can stop working six weeks before, so at 34 weeks, or at 36 weeks, you have to stop working. You're not allowed like the your company is not uh uh allowed to to keep you any longer, basically. You have to stop working. So so those four weeks before birth, it could be that you're still two weeks off without giving birth, or it could be four in my case, it was five and a half weeks because I gave birth for both times at 41 plus three or 41 plus two days. So in my case, I was yeah, off without a baby for five, five and a half weeks. Um, but then you also get those weeks afterwards back. So if you're so in my case, I stopped work at 36 weeks, and then I had uh full pay for um 12 weeks after, um, which is three months, 100% pay, and then I took two extra months, uh, 70% pay. Um, and now uh our daughter is five months, and she's actually going to nursery for the first time tomorrow. We had our um yeah, we had our check-in today. Yes, well, I'm actually not dropping her off because I don't think I can handle it. So my husband is dropping her off. I don't know. We did the in with like we had our talk with them today, like a check-in. Uh, we went there and uh they take us through the whole process, which is really good, and then tomorrow he will drop her off. But then, yeah, so she's five months tomorrow, and um, she's going to nursery, which is quite standard in the Netherlands to bring your child to nurse nursery uh after three or four months. Okay. Which is also very different from the UK, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Longer, right? You take much, you take like a year off uh most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:51

It's I think yeah, I think it's quite common. It's quite common to take the first year off.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Um yeah, yeah. So I'm back to work as well tomorrow. So uh after five months. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Yeah, mixed actually, because I'm also ready uh to challenge myself again and challenge my brain in that regard again, and be amongst uh people that actually talk back. Um and I enjoy what I do a lot, so I think that also helps. Um yeah, I yeah, I'm looking forward to just yeah, be back on the work floor again and and do that part of of life again, but also is that that guilt that keeps on rushing through your head, and um yeah, just dropping her off at nursery, which is very normal in Holland. There's lots of babies there, much younger than my daughter's age, but um yeah, it just feels mixed. She goes there two days a week, and the rest we cover with uh my parents, uh together. Uh, I have my day with them, so yeah. Um the week is covered with lots of different things, but um, she goes two days to nursery, so it's not crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

Okay. Well, I wish you um the best of luck to the two of you girls, uh, and to dad as well, who's going to be the one doing the first drop-off. Uh he will be fine, he'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

Uh it's very yeah, I don't know. We talk about this quite often actually, because it's really much it yeah, it interests me a lot about how it's different for a dad or a mom, but also not, right? Um, but yeah, I I asked him, Do you have that guilt feeling? He said, No, not really. It's quite natural, like it's good for her. I think, oh yeah, it's very different, right? The mom brain. And maybe it's also because she's fully breastfeeding at the moment still, so I will have to pump at work and um all of that. It's quite I I remember that from the first time around. It was quite intense. Um, but yeah, it's part of the deal, right? And I'll try and do that as long as possible, the breastfeeding. But personally, I think it would be better in the Netherlands if there was a way, as they say it's the best to give breast uh breastfeeding for the first nine to 12 months, if they say, okay, take maternity leave for the first nine months. I think that would be better because now I took five months and I have to go back to work because after this it literally stops, right? I wouldn't get 70%, it would be just zero. Um, so it would be better if they say, okay, we cover maybe less percentage, right? It doesn't have to be 70%, but that they say you can stay at home for nine months and then you get X amount. But the choice is with yeah, you choose, for example, uh, if you want that. Um, but yeah, in the Netherlands it's uh quite normal to go back after five or three months or four months or five months after giving birth.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

So early, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

It feels a little bit early, but yeah, I guess you know, if all her little friends are the same age or even younger, she can walk in. Walk in, you know. She can do it. Being like, Yep, we're ready for it, babies.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:03

Yeah. Well, I when we dropped my son the first time at the nursery, it was also a whole process, right? But um the the ladies there are so sweet and everybody takes such good care of the babies, but um, it was also like a detachment and really going through the whole process. Um, but um yeah, I think now the second time around, you almost the feelings I have today about it is like, oh yeah, deja vu. It's it's it's gonna be okay. I just have to go through it and then it will be okay. But it feels a bit unnatural sometimes, yeah. Yeah to let go of her.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:39

You will do so good. I'm talking to you, not baby.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

Yeah, there might be a few tears, but that's also fine. I think they're allowed to be there. My sister texted me, and I think that's a really nice way of saying it. She said, the two feelings are allowed to be there amongst each other. So you can both feel the fact that you it's okay to go back to work, and I enjoy that part of myself, and being amongst the people that actually talk back, like I said, and challenged my brain. And it's okay to have that feeling of guilt and uh yeah, and also a bit of sadness that that this chapter is now already finished. And I was very much looking forward to these months with you know, in the whole summer, I was very lucky to have a baby this time around in the summer. So, yeah, the whole the whole experience about giving birth at home and how she's grown and fully breastfeeding. I've been very lucky. So it's also like a chapter that you're closing. So she said to me, she texted me uh last night, she said those two feelings are allowed to be amongst each other. And I think that's a really good way of saying it because sometimes you spike in one feeling and you really feel like, oh my goodness, it's very intense, and then the other feeling comes up like, Oh, I'm really looking forward to having a coffee chat with this person and um you know going around this project at work or picking that up again. So um, so yeah, it's that um limbo effect that I guess a lot of working mums have.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:01

For sure, for sure. But those are very wise words. I I I'm gonna steal that from your sister. I really like that. You're allowed to feel those two feelings at the same time, it's absolutely fine. You can coexist.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

Yeah, coexist, and I think I needed that uh encouragement because yeah, sometimes you feel very much like, whoa, what am I feeling now? Because they're both there, um, but they're definitely coexisting.

unknown 1:13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:26

All right. Um, I think we're getting towards the end of your story. Is there anything else that you want to add that you feel like you'd like to share about what it's like to have a baby in the Netherlands?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Yeah, I think it's really nice to have a baby in the Netherlands. There's a lot of, and of course, I'm always comparing to the UK because I've lived there for so many years, and also my dad is English, right? So we still have a lot of the English culture within us and family and stuff, but uh there's a lot to do for kids in the Netherlands. We go a lot to theme parks, which are fully for like the younger generation or older, or there's just a lot of, for example, five minutes down the road from where we live, there's a petting zoo, and we walk there every weekend. And so I think there there's just a lot of yeah, the the kids in the neighborhood, they all play on the streets every evening in the summer, and then you hear the moms and dads calling out, dinner's ready, and it's very peaceful, I would say. And uh yeah, I I of course I have never had kids in the UK, and we lived in in London when we lived in the UK, uh, or in the outskirts of London. So, of course, it may be also different in villages in the UK, but yeah, it's what I really like about the Netherlands is that it's kids walk to school, right? And the school is at the end of the street here, and uh or they bike, not biking. That's a very cool thing maybe about the Netherlands. You have the I bike with the kids every day with the buckfeet. Um how do I describe a buckfeet, electric bike with uh the kids sit in like a big unit in the front, and you know the car seat that you use for the car? We have that in the bike, literally for the baby. That's cool, yeah. And then uh my son, he sits in a little chair, and then we bike everywhere, uh, every day. It's amazing. Come rain, come sunshine. We're on the bike. So that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:23

I envy you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Yeah, and I yeah, I I don't know. Um everybody here has one. It's not like they're cheap, but basically we have a car and a bike, right? It's like an investment. So it's it's it's like our second car, and um, and the kids love it. So yeah, it's an amazing Dutch thing, I think. You see it, you don't see it very much uh abroad. I've seen it in Germany when we were there in our summer holiday. We drove through Germany and we stayed in Stuttgart. Randomly enough, I saw some, but here you see them every two minutes. You see your mom or dad on the buckfeet come around the corner with uh three, four, five kids in there, friends, all of them in there. Yeah. And they're all strapped, huh? So it's not like they're loose, loose in in there and it's all dangerous. They're all struck up and um most of the time now wearing helmets as well. I know that's a thing here where people cycle without a helmet, but the kids wear helmets. Yeah. So living on the edge, I don't wear a helmet, but uh very touch of me, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:29

So you have a helmet for the little one in the car seat?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

No, not in the car seat.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

No, not in the car seat, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

She's fine in the car seat. But when my little one goes on his own bike, which he already does, he's two and a half, the oldest one. Uh not not the five months old. Not too soon. Almost as soon as she walks, she's on a bike. Um, but uh yeah, so he's uh with the helmet on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

But then but not not all the Dutch kids wear helmets. So you see in the neighborhood, you see the kids on the bikes, and a lot of them are not wearing helmets. So I think that's also a bit Dutch, and maybe not the best thing about us. Uh, but it's almost like when you start to walk, you start to ride your bike.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:12

I'm loving it. So yeah. I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

It's like a combination deal, right? You walk, you bike. So yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess that's uh about the life as a mom in the Netherlands, yeah. Which is um so far pretty good. And I think the overall story is that you're pretty supported by the Dutch government, and um it's it's a pretty good setup, especially also for the partner. And the only thing that I would say I would love to change is the extension of the mom's maternity leave, which is quite short. Yeah, that's my only the only downside I would say um about being a mum in the Netherlands. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

Well, thank you so much for taking us on uh a little trip to the Netherlands uh and to Holland. Now we know as well. Um but thank you so much for sharing your story and your experience. I personally loved it. Um I'm loving the the cycling everywhere and uh but that would so be me. Uh but um no not about here. Um but you know so thank you so much for sharing all that, Susie. Um Doc Suzy. Yeah, of course, and uh I'll speak to you very soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

Yeah, thank you so much as well, and I really enjoyed our conversation, so I appreciate it a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:31

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:33

Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Susie, thank you. Thank you for taking us into your world with such warmth, such openness, and such uh wonderful detail. I came into this conversation thinking I knew what to expect, and you surprised me at every turn in the best possible way. What I love most about episodes like this is that they are not just fascinating, they are quietly radical. Because when you hear about a system that wraps up new parents in genuine support that trusts women's bodies that gives the second parent real time to show up, that sends someone to your door in dispersed fragile days so you don't have to figure it all out alone. It doesn't feel like a fantasy. It feels like a blueprint. And Susie's birth is so different from each other, so completely unscripted, are a reminder that however much we plan, however prepared we feel, life will always have something of its own to add to the story. And that sometimes the unplanned moments are the ones that stay with you the longest. If this episode made you curious, made you smile, or made you think good, share it, send it to your pregnant friend, your midwife, your internator group, or your buddies. The more we talk about what is possible, the harder it becomes to susceptible for less. Thank you for being part of this village all the way from the Netherlands. As always, thank you for listening, for being part of this village. And I'll see you in the next episode. Bye-bye. Giving me the space to keep bringing you thoughtful and honest conversations. You can find all past episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, YouTube, or wherever you usually listen. And you can follow the show there and put some new episodes straight into your feed. If you'd like to get in touch, share feedback or suggest a story, you can find me on Instagram at Raising with the Village. I always love hearing from you. And if this podcast has resonated with you, one of the best ways to support it is by subscribing, rating, leaving a review, or sharing an episode with someone who might need it. It truly makes a difference and helps these stories reach the people who need them most. Thank you for being part of the village. And I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.